Not much love for idlers??

bazelio

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As I've perused the WBF archives and discovered a wealth of information, one thing that has stuck out to me is that there seems not to be a lot of love for idlers here. Garrard, Thorens, Lenco... Bueler? Mainly I'm curious why this might be the case, what with the stability, PRaT, and imaging capabilities of well-restored idlers being hard to beat. Obviously, they're not the latest and greatest thing, aren't hyped/memed much in the press, etc. But if the love of music is paramount....

Anyhow, I'm interested in what others think, especially if there's a notable preference away from them.

Thanks!
 

spiritofmusic

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Bazelio, no shortage of love from this user of idlers.
My Trans Fi Audio Salvation is technically a direct rim drive, but that’s a straight evolution of idler (being based on the Lenco L70).
Happy to talk at length about what makes the presentation magical.
 

bonzo75

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Schopper TD 124.

853guy will also write you a long post on his love of idlers with two footnotes.

And Tang and DDK and airbearing can tell you about the EMT 927.

Check with Robbyatt audio outside this if you want to know more about the Commonwealths. Also on Lenco heaven where Schroeder and Schick prefer that.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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further thoughts on WBF and idlers.

we are not really much of a DIY community here. and those forums that cater more to the DIY crowd seem to have lots of idler talk. lots of threads on rebuild projects and details about processes.

so it's not that we don't like idlers, it's more that we don't (re) build idlers.

I did own a very nice 'Dobbins' plinth'd Garrard 301 with the Loricraft Power Supply that I really enjoyed. it made great energetic if not exactly linear music. it was not the last word in quietness or refinement. it's possible to make a quiet idler but those are not common.
 

Empirical Audio

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Al M.

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bazelio

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further thoughts on WBF and idlers.

we are not really much of a DIY community here. and those forums that cater more to the DIY crowd seem to have lots of idler talk. lots of threads on rebuild projects and details about processes.

so it's not that we don't like idlers, it's more that we don't (re) build idlers.

I did own a very nice 'Dobbins' plinth'd Garrard 301 with the Loricraft Power Supply that I really enjoyed. it made great energetic if not exactly linear music. it was not the last word in quietness or refinement. it's possible to make a quiet idler but those are not common.


Yeah you mention Dobbins, which I've also heard. And Woodsong, Artisan Fidelity, Dobbins, even Schick I believe, et. al. make owning a Garrard 301 as turnkey as anything else. I would like to hear your experience in terms of lack of linearity and refinement with the Dobbins 301 you owned. On the noise front, I'd always assumed idlers would audibly rumble, but with Dobbins and Woodsong plinths I haven't detected this sort of noise.

With SME resurrecting the 301, I wonder if they'll have a new take on the classic plinth perhaps by incorporating 30/12 style anti-vibration.
 

MadFloyd

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What is an 'idler' (or rather, what classifies a turntable as an 'idler')?
 

Al M.

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Mike Lavigne

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Yeah you mention Dobbins, which I've also heard. And Woodsong, Artisan Fidelity, Dobbins, even Schick I believe, et. al. make owning a Garrard 301 as turnkey as anything else. I would like to hear your experience in terms of lack of linearity and refinement with the Dobbins 301 you owned. On the noise front, I'd always assumed idlers would audibly rumble, but with Dobbins and Woodsong plinths I haven't detected this sort of noise.

With SME resurrecting the 301, I wonder if they'll have a new take on the classic plinth perhaps by incorporating 30/12 style anti-vibration.

in direct comparison to other more linear turntables in my system at that same time, such as the Rockport Sirius III, Dobbin's Technics SP-10 Mk2 and Mk3.......and later the NVS, the 301 rounded transients, had a forward lean and added a touch of mid-bass boost which made some types of music more engaging, but got in the way of the refinement of other music. and the mechanicals of the 301 contributed a bit of added noise floor absent on those other turntables. when you would A/B these others with the 301 it was easy to hear where they were different. some listeners preferred the 301's 'added drive' to the 'truth' of those others. for me, I miss what I loved about the 301. if I was starting over and wanted a fun tt in a more modest system with a focus on jazz and blues, a 301 might be the perfect choice. the 301 played to the strengths of that kind of music. but for classical, it was not quite allowing the delicate nuance to come through.

if you did not have a top level more linear tt to expose it's shortcomings, the 301 could be great in any environment. it's not that it lacked nuance and refinement, just it was clearly not as good at those things as other turntables I had.

was my 301 better or worse than the typical 301? or other idlers? I can't really say for sure, but others who heard mine liked it a lot.

added note; the Saskia II did all those wonderful 'idler' things + it could do full justice to any kind of music. very quiet, nuanced, and refined. no rounded transients. still had the drive and flow of the best idler.
 
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bazelio

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Nice! A top 5 jazz album in my book.

On the Dobbins 301 I heard, the owner had both the stock rubber platter mat and a brass platter mat and I found the brass to be essential. The rubber seemed to push the entire presentation forward in an unpleasant and aggressive manner, in comparison. The brass provided depth and air. And the difference wasn't minor.
 

Tango

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in direct comparison to other more linear turntables in my system at that same time, such as the Rockport Sirius III, Dobbin's Technics SP-10 Mk2 and Mk3.......and later the NVS, the 301 rounded transients, had a forward lean and added a touch of mid-bass boost which made some types of music more engaging, but got in the way of the refinement of other music. and the mechanicals of the 301 contributed a bit of added noise floor absent on those other turntables. when you would A/B these others with the 301 it was easy to hear where they were different. some listeners preferred the 301's 'added drive' to the 'truth' of those others. for me, I miss what I loved about the 301. if I was starting over and wanted a fun tt in a more modest system with a focus on jazz and blues, a 301 might be the perfect choice. the 301 played to the strengths of that kind of music. but for classical, it was not quite allowing the delicate nuance to come through.

if you did not have a top level more linear tt to expose it's shortcomings, the 301 could be great in any environment. it's not that it lacked nuance and refinement, just it was clearly not as good at those things as other turntables I had.

+1 That’s a good call. I once had a friend’s 301 in my system too...similar to what you said. It means your NVS setup is unlike the other dd that Kedar did his tts shoot out with. And that my 927 setup sound rather unlike the 301. We cannot generalize sound by the drive of a tt, can we?

Kindest regards,
Tang
 

spiritofmusic

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I’ve been living with my rim drive/idler for 6 years now, topped off by all things with an air bearing linear tracking arm.

I have to concur with Mike, in the final analysis, it can’t quite do the neutral invisible act as well as the best belt drives.

This in my system is somewhat ameliorated by running it w the air arm, tricked out Soundsmith Straingauge cart, and isolating it on my Stacore Advanced passive platform.

However, it is absolutely stellar with rock, fusion/electric jazz, jazz.

On classical there is a little bit of lower mids colouration or bloom, that would leave an absolute aficionado maybe a tad unconvinced.

Of course my Zus aren’t famed for classical, so I can’t totally isolate the tt’s contribution here. But I know I would have to spend big on belt drive to truly keep my idler/rim engagement levels intact while adding more linearity.
 

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