New 260 in the house

[edorr]

You should contact ARC and confirm that your ARC preamp can drive the low input impedance (10K ohms) of the 260. Per the specs listed on ARC's website, 20K ohms is the minimum load for the 5SE. My guess is the 5SE will have a difficult time driving the 260.

Good advise. Just gave them a call.

Irrespective of what they tell me, I will execute my plan (I already committed to buying an MIT speaker cable). I like my preamp. If it turns out I like the Spectral poweramp (based on what I hear driving it directly from DAC, which many users have been doing successfully, including Adam (Elberoth), but it does not work well with the preamp, I'll just have to decide what I like most (class A mono's + ARC preamp or Spectral driven by DAC direct) there is always going to be a compromise....

 

[kennyb123]

Good advise. Just gave them a call.

I just mentioned this as I had poor results pairing one of their phono stages (PH7) to my Spectral preamp. Per ARC, the PH7 (and many other tube products) just can't drive that low of an input impedance. I figured the same might be true for their preamps driving a Spectral amp.

I'll just have to decide what I like most (class A mono's + ARC preamp or Spectral driven by DAC direct) there is always going to be a compromise....

Certainly there will be a set of trade-offs. You will just have to decide which you prefer. It sounds like you are going about it the right way. Although the final call on the Spectral amp should probably wait until after you've heard it paired with a Spectral preamp.

 

[edorr]

Certainly there will be a set of trade-offs. You will just have to decide which you prefer. It sounds like you are going about it the right way. Although the final call on the Spectral amp should probably wait until after you've heard it paired with a Spectral preamp.

I'm planning to make a keep it or sell it (the 260) decision based on results without the spectral preamp. If the ARC does not work, the MSB direct should be able to make it sing (other are driving the 260 with DAC direct with great results...). Then, if I decide to keep it, I'll try to can get more mileage out of it with Spectral preamp and additional MIT interconnect.

 

[edorr]

I just mentioned this as I had poor results pairing one of their phono stages (PH7) to my Spectral preamp. Per ARC, the PH7 (and many other tube products) just can't drive that low of an input impedance. I figured the same might be true for their preamps driving a Spectral amp.

Just spoke with Audio Research. They advise against mixing their gear with Spectral and predict I will get poor results. So most likely I'll have to judge the 260 driven directly by the MSB DAC.

 

[edorr]

Continued my fact finding mission speaking with three different Spectral dealers. Only issue is, there are no Spectral "facts" per se. Lots of mystique - yes.

Dealer one says you can use spectral poweramp with any preamp (and IC) no problem - it won't sound its best, but will play just fine. Dealer 2 says, will sound like crap, but the dCS Vivaldi will drive the Spectral poweramp OK. Dealer 3 says you will damage the poweramp, it can't be done under any circumstances, we would not sell you a poweramp without a preamp and Robert Harley does not know what he is doing.

So what is a fella to do? For starters I am trying to pick up a used 30sl pre to throw into the experiment. Second, wait for a "certified" dealer trade in 260 to show up (which will undoubtedly happened once the 300sr launches). These guys are not making things easy .....

 

[kennyb123]

Dealer 3 says you will damage the poweramp, it can't be done under any circumstances, we would not sell you a poweramp without a preamp

This is consistent with the warning in the manual for my Spectral amp, a DMA-150 s2:

"Tube and many solid state preamplifiers cannot drive the DMA-150 input circuitry properly. CD players and digital processors also should never be used to drive the DMA-150. Only high-performance solid state preamplifiers with high output current capability (minimum 180 ma continuous) will be compatible with the low input impedance and very high speed operation of the DMA-150 amplifier. Failure to use a high current preamplifier such as those from Spectral may result in serious damage to the DMA-150 output section. Such damage is not covered by factory warranty."

You should see if this language is found in the 260's manual.

 

[scouter]

You could consider a used DMC-15 when one comes available. I've been using a 15 for 3 years after a dealer recommended it as a viable alternative to the more expensive 30- great sound but less frills. I'll have to admit I'm too afraid try the Vega DAC directly into the 260

 

[edorr]

This is consistent with the warning in the manual for my Spectral amp, a DMA-150 s2:

"Tube and many solid state preamplifiers cannot drive the DMA-150 input circuitry properly. CD players and digital processors also should never be used to drive the DMA-150. Only high-performance solid state preamplifiers with high output current capability (minimum 180 ma continuous) will be compatible with the low input impedance and very high speed operation of the DMA-150 amplifier. Failure to use a high current preamplifier such as those from Spectral may result in serious damage to the DMA-150 output section. Such damage is not covered by factory warranty."

You should see if this language is found in the 260's manual.

Fair enough. But then why does dealer 1 tell me the amp can be used with my ARC tube preamp and Transparent cabling no risk / no problem (it just won't sound very good). Note that this dealer is not some obscure outfit, but one of the pre-eminent hifi dealers in the country.

 

[kennyb123]

Fair enough. But then why does dealer 1 tell me the amp can be used with my ARC tube preamp and Transparent cabling no risk / no problem (it just won't sound very good). Note that this dealer is not some obscure outfit, but one of the pre-eminent hifi dealers in the country.

Please tell me that he's not a Spectral dealer! LOL

He may well be right that no harm will be done. You just have to decide if it's worth taking the risk. Repairs won't be cheap.

 

[edorr]

Please tell me that he's not a Spectral dealer! LOL

He may well be right that no harm will be done. You just have to decide if it's worth taking the risk. Repairs won't be cheap.

Sorry - he is a (very big) Spectral dealer...

 

[mep]

To be an owner of Spectral gear requires a special type of owner who is willing to put up with marginally stable electronics that are basically unsuitable for use with any other brand of electronics and cables. Mixing and matching Spectral amps and preamps with other electronics is like playing Russian Roulette. Who wants to put up with an amp that shuts down all the time when you are trying to listen to music because it doesn't like your electrostatic speakers and/or your non-Spectral preamp?

If I remember correctly, Spectral is not the primary business of Rick Fryer. His primary business deals with RF electronics which partially explains why he builds audio gear that is operating into the MHz bandwidth. From Spectral's website: "Uncompromising audio circuitry must be extremely wideband, but wideband output can broadcast like a transmitter, to produce megahertz oscillations which ring and distort the audio signal. To prevent oscillations in the Spectral system, conventional "wire" cables have been replaced with precision tuned cable "networks" developed by MIT. "

If you don't use Spectral gear with other Spectral gear and you don't use approved Spectral cables, you are at the constant risk of sending you gear into high-speed oscillation. That is why I said before-can you really ownly drink half of the Spectral kool-aid? If you buy into their philosophy and love their products, how do you go against their preachings and use their gear with other gear and other cables that are going to cause suboptimal performance if not ultimately damage that requires an expensive repair and an "I told you so" from Spectral? To me, if you are going to join the Spectral church of audio religion, you need to be "all in" or risk be excommunicated from the flock and having lots of downtime with your system.

 

[edorr]

To be an owner of Spectral gear requires a special type of owner who is willing to put up with marginally stable electronics that are basically unsuitable for use with any other brand of electronics and cables. Mixing and matching Spectral amps and preamps with other electronics is like playing Russian Roulette. Who wants to put up with an amp that shuts down all the time when you are trying to listen to music because it doesn't like your electrostatic speakers and/or your non-Spectral preamp?

If I remember correctly, Spectral is not the primary business of Rick Fryer. His primary business deals with RF electronics which partially explains why he builds audio gear that is operating into the MHz bandwidth. From Spectral's website: "Uncompromising audio circuitry must be extremely wideband, but wideband output can broadcast like a transmitter, to produce megahertz oscillations which ring and distort the audio signal. To prevent oscillations in the Spectral system, conventional "wire" cables have been replaced with precision tuned cable "networks" developed by MIT. "

If you don't use Spectral gear with other Spectral gear and you don't use approved Spectral cables, you are at the constant risk of sending you gear into high-speed oscillation. That is why I said before-can you really own drink half of the Spectral kool-aid? If you buy into their philosophy and love their products, how do you go against their preachings and use their gear with other gear and other cables that are going to cause suboptimal performance if not ultimately damage that requires an expensive repair and an "I told you so" from Spectral? To me, if you are going to join the Spectral church of audio religion, you need to be "all in" or risk be excommunicated from the flock and having lots of downtime with your system.

May be so, but for now I am trying to decide if I like the spectral house sound ("lightning fast"), over my incumbent ("warm") tube / class A sound, without having to buy a whole MIT Spectral package 1 IC / 1 SC / Preamp and Poweramp. The Spectral preamp can be used with non spectral poweramp no problem (this is even stated explicitly on the Goodwin website), so that is a start. Not sure yet if using the pre with my existing poweramp required an MIT IC. Still learning - much conflicting information....

 

[docvale]

Mep,

From one point of view, you are right: Spectral gear, through a technical explanation plus esoteric mix, forces you to get into the system full monthy.
Notwithstanding, people go with single-branded amplifications in many further cases: think about Burmester, Naim, McIntosh, Kondo, Audio Techne, Dartzeel and similar. For many candidate buyers, knowing that staying homogeneous within the brand is a high performance warrancy is a purchase quality reassurance.
I don't own any Spectral gear, since, unfortunately, I cannot afford it. But, even if I had unlimited amount of money to spend on an audio system, a Spectral amplification would be my #1 choice (followed by Burmester and VTL). Notably, Spectral represents an "affordable" super-hiend company, with reference products that cost just a fraction of the price of other brands.

To be an owner of Spectral gear requires a special type of owner who is willing to put up with marginally stable electronics that are basically unsuitable for use with any other brand of electronics and cables. Mixing and matching Spectral amps and preamps with other electronics is like playing Russian Roulette. Who wants to put up with an amp that shuts down all the time when you are trying to listen to music because it doesn't like your electrostatic speakers and/or your non-Spectral preamp?

If I remember correctly, Spectral is not the primary business of Rick Fryer. His primary business deals with RF electronics which partially explains why he builds audio gear that is operating into the MHz bandwidth. From Spectral's website: "Uncompromising audio circuitry must be extremely wideband, but wideband output can broadcast like a transmitter, to produce megahertz oscillations which ring and distort the audio signal. To prevent oscillations in the Spectral system, conventional "wire" cables have been replaced with precision tuned cable "networks" developed by MIT. "

If you don't use Spectral gear with other Spectral gear and you don't use approved Spectral cables, you are at the constant risk of sending you gear into high-speed oscillation. That is why I said before-can you really own drink half of the Spectral kool-aid? If you buy into their philosophy and love their products, how do you go against their preachings and use their gear with other gear and other cables that are going to cause suboptimal performance if not ultimately damage that requires an expensive repair and an "I told you so" from Spectral? To me, if you are going to join the Spectral church of audio religion, you need to be "all in" or risk be excommunicated from the flock and having lots of downtime with your system.

 

[mullard88]

Hi edorr,

Your post #45 caught my attention. I am a long time spectral user and I have mixed and matched my spectral gear with other brands and have not had any breakdowns. The only piece of spectral equipment that has broken down on me was the dac. The equipment is yours after you acquire it and I feel one has the right to experiment with it. It is all a matter of guts for me when I experiment. The worst that could ever happen is to throw away the equipment if it breaks.

 

[edorr]

Hi edorr,

Your post #45 caught my attention. I am a long time spectral user and I have mixed and matched my spectral gear with other brands and have not had any breakdowns. The only piece of spectral equipment that has broken down on me was the dac. The equipment is yours after you acquire it and I feel one has the right to experiment with it. It is all a matter of guts for me when I experiment. The worst that could ever happen is to throw away the equipment if it breaks.

Thanks, I was planning to at least dilute the MIT / Spectral cool-aid a bit. I did get the impression that without the MIT speaker cabling you will not hear what the poweramps are capable off, so I did get a pair of those. Next is scoop up a 260, which no doubt will show up once the new 300rs hits the market. If a reasonably priced DMC 30ss Gen 2 shows up, I may also jump on it.

 

[mullard88]

You're welcome. I have tried fm acoustic speaker cables, Daniel hertz speaker cables, and sensory power speaker cables just to compare the sonic differences against MIT speaker cables. All of the speaker cables worked perfectly well with my spectral amps and of course they all had different results.

 

[edorr]

Does anyone know if Spectral has a dealer in the Chicago area? I'll be there for the holidays, and I would like to take the opportunity to listen to their amps, if a dealer in the area exists.

 

[Mobiusman]

Does anyone know if Spectral has a dealer in the Chicago area? I'll be there for the holidays, and I would like to take the opportunity to listen to their amps, if a dealer in the area exists.

Eric, As someone who does mix and match with Spectral and someone who tried to use Shunyata signal cables, I can tell you that I prefer tube front end and Spectral back end. I have done the reverse and loved it as well, but do not like having to deal with amp output tubes. I find the total Spectral package a bit too analytic for me. What I can tell you without a doubt is that the Spectral 260 does desire MIT cables. It just sounded wrong with Shunyata's and was highly sensitive to shut down. In addition to better sound, I get more power and stability with the MIT's. I have the Oracle HD 60 speaker wire and the MA-X interconnects and S/PDIF. They are wonderful, but costly and the 260 is very happy. I did buy single ended IC's because that is what Spectral prefers and it also dropped the output impedance of my preamp to 150 from 300.

If I were buying new, I would probably spend the extra $5k and get the 300RS if that last bit of detail matters. I have spent a far amount of time listening to Marty's 400's and find that they do offer another level of detail that mine does not. Having said that, the 260 is a bargain of an amp and sounds incredible. Once my Shunyata's have broken in, I find myself listening more than I have in years. BTW, last week I upgraded my PC's on my preamp and power amp from Pythons to Anaconda's and had quite a bit of improvement overall. I clearly have the best sound I have ever had, including a few systems that cost much more than what I am using now.

 

[edorr]

Eric, As someone who does mix and match with Spectral and someone who tried to use Shunyata signal cables, I can tell you that I prefer tube front end and Spectral back end. I have done the reverse and loved it as well, but do not like having to deal with amp output tubes. I find the total Spectral package a bit too analytic for me. What I can tell you without a doubt is that the Spectral 260 does desire MIT cables. It just sounded wrong with Shunyata's and was highly sensitive to shut down. In addition to better sound, I get more power and stability with the MIT's. I have the Oracle HD 60 speaker wire and the MA-X interconnects and S/PDIF. They are wonderful, but costly and the 260 is very happy. I did buy single ended IC's because that is what Spectral prefers and it also dropped the output impedance of my preamp to 150 from 300.

If I were buying new, I would probably spend the extra $5k and get the 300RS if that last bit of detail matters. I have spent a far amount of time listening to Marty's 400's and find that they do offer another level of detail that mine does not. Having said that, the 260 is a bargain of an amp and sounds incredible. Once my Shunyata's have broken in, I find myself listening more than I have in years. BTW, last week I upgraded my PC's on my preamp and power amp from Pythons to Anaconda's and had quite a bit of improvement overall. I clearly have the best sound I have ever had, including a few systems that cost much more than what I am using now.

Russ, I am a little on the fence about which way to proceed. I have bought MIT SC, but am reluctant to get an MA-X IC, just to "be prepared" for my Spectral proof of concept. For starters, If I decide to go another route I will need to resell it (I would go back to balanced). I know for a fact that if I like the 260, I'll want the 300rs. However, I expect used 260 to show up for $7-8K when the 300rs comes out, so there is s significant price gap. I'm thinking of buying a used 260 and if I like what I hear resell is and get to the 300rs. If I get the 300rs at full retail and don't like it, I'm out 20% of 15K = 3K. Of course, some dealer may give me an in house audition of a 300rs which would be the best way to find out if I want to go the spectral route, but I'm not holding my breath. Decisions, decision. As for preamp - tough call as well. I can run with tubes and DAC direct. If the poweramp works out I can pick up a 30SS at some point to give it a try. Of course overture advises the opposite - get preamp first and then try poweramp. I am finding some of the dealers' advice is mildly self serving by the way. Goodwin is a lot less religious about the Spectral / MIT rulebook.