Lamm LP 2/2.1 vs Luxman EQ-500

[No Regrets]

Merry Christmas!

I was wondering if anyone has had an opportunity to compare the Lamm LP2 or LP2.1 to that of the Luxman EQ-500?
I would love to hear your thoughts and experiences that you've had with them.

More than likely, I would be using my Hirata Tango SUT's into the moving magnet input on each.
I love the idea of the flexibility of gain and loading on the Luxman, but I also love how the reviewers talk about the sound reproduction produced by the Lamm LP2.1

Wishing you all the very best of health and happiness this Holiday Season
Don

 

[No Regrets]

From the lack of responses, I am assuming that no one has had the opportunity to compare the Lamm LP2/2.1 to the Luxman EQ-500 phono stages.

I'm thinking that instead of me asking for a "comparison" between the Lamm and the Lux; that maybe if you are fortunate enough to have experience with one or the other, you might be willing to share....

1. What do you like most about it?
2. How does the sound compare to other phono stages that you've had?
3. Do you feel it's missing anything or do you think this is your end game phono?

I think both of these would be fantastic to own. I'm just trying my best to make the best decision I can.

Wishing you all the very best of health and happiness,
Don

 

[dan31]

What cartridge will you be using? I would think the Lamm would be the superior phono but it will depend on your system and preferences. The preamp or integrated amp you pair the phono with may also help in selecting the best phono.

 

[Solypsa]

Also what loading preferences do you currently employ? ( to give an idea of what you need).

 

[Nemal1]

Unless you are set in either of your 2 proposals, the Esoteric 02 is very flexible, has balanced and unbalanced inputs and outputs, de-mag facility, is superbly built and sounds great as well. Just a thought... good luck with your final choice

 

[Solypsa]

Ditto for Audiospecials Phonolab. Oh and you get two preamps that you can configure to your liking ( MM, MM low gain, MC).

 

[No Regrets]

Hello and thank you so much for the replies above To answer some of the questions you've asked.....

My cartridge is a Benz Ruby ZH - Zebrawood bodied MC with internal impedance of 38 Ohms and an output of .7mV @ 3.54 cm/sec.
I would be using my Hirata Tango SUT's that have 1:8 and 1:10 step up ratios.

When used into a 47K input impedance of a phono stage, the 1:8 should show a natural impedance of roughly 734 Ohms which my Benz absolutely loves! The sound is very natural, evenly balanced, dynamic across the full frequency spectrum and great sound staging. On the other hand, when using the 1:10 into a 47K phono stage - showing a natural impedance of roughly 470 Ohms, the highs are truncated, dynamically compressed, and the soundstage is shortened and more narrow.

So a feature of the Luxman EQ-500 that appeals to me is the flexible loading up to 100K Ohms when using the MM inputs. I think that using an outboard SUT into the moving magnet inputs and having that flexible loading could be of a great benefit.

My concern for the Lamm PH2.1 is that it is a fixed input impedance.... the literature says it is at 47K Ohms, but then says when using their internal SUT with a 1:10 ratio the natural impedance is only at 400 Ohms. If I understand this correctly, if the input impedance is truly 47K than a 1:10 should reflect 470 ohms. So, if it is reflecting only 400 Ohms, then the input impedance is likely only 40K. That means if I use my external SUT with a 1:8 ratio, the natural impedance would only be 625 vs 734.

My line stage is a First Sound Presence Audio dual mono vacuum tube design that uses one 6922 per channel for gain and one OA2 per channel for regulation.

My amplifier is powered by a single ended triode 845 per channel.

Thank you so much for your help:

 

[Solypsa]

Does the 1:8 give you enough gain?

100k input is often easy to accomplish with a resistor swap

 

[No Regrets]

Using the 1:8 should give me roughly 18dB of gain in addition to the 40dB from either the Lamm or the Lux should be a total of 58dB. That should put my volume controls at about 11:30 to 12 o'clock position on my line stage. As long as the phono stage is very quiet, I would think that would be near perfect.

Changing out the resistor is an idea....but I have three concerns with that:
1. It will likely void the warranty if I do it.
2. I don't know if by changing out the resistor, if that will affect the RIAA network at all.
3. Both the Lamm and the Lux utilize printed circuit boards which makes soldering a much more difficult task if you don't have the proper iron.

Best Wishes,
Don

 

[Solypsa]

The good news is that your 1:8 into 47k with 40db gain to follow is (according to your posts) perfect- so with this cart either preamp will work great objectively. I get it that options are good and understand the desire to be able to select 47k or 100k...

 

[No Regrets]

I agree if both phono stages have 47K input impedance. But there in is the rub. My fear is that the Lamm's input impedance is really only 40K Ohms as in there specification sheet, it says the resultant impedance shown by their 1:10 step up transformer is only 400 Ohms. If their input impedance was 47K Ohms, then the natural impedance should be 470 Ohms. I realize that the same spec sheet says their input impedance 47K, but that doesn't match resultant impedance from their internal step up transformer.... it seems to be contradicting each other, so I am confused or am misunderstanding something.

So my cartridge loves to see the 734 Ohms that my 1:8 step up shows into 47K, but may not like the 625 Ohms that it sees if the input is only 40K Ohms.

I tried to send a message to Lamm Industries to find out exactly what it is, but my message does not go thru via their website

I just really want to make sure that I am making the best decision that I can between these two wonderful phono stages.

Best Wishes,
Don

 

[tima]

My fear is that the Lamm's input impedance is really only 40K Ohms as in there specification sheet, it says the resultant impedance shown by their 1:10 step up transformer is only 400 Ohms. If their input impedance was 47K Ohms, then the natural impedance should be 470 Ohms. I realize that the same spec sheet says their input impedance 47K, but that doesn't match resultant impedance from their internal step up transformer.... it seems to be contradicting each other, so I am confused or am misunderstanding something.

Hi Don,

I have never heard the Luxman EQ-500. In terms of number of switches, dials, and knobs it is a night and day contrast to the Lamm phonostage.

Per the Lamm specifications and manual, the LP2.1's Moving Magnet input impedance is 47 KOhms and the Moving Coil input impedance is 400 Ohms. MM gain is 40dB. MC gain is 60dB.

The MM input sends signal directly to the LP2.1's first gain stage where it acquires 40dB of gain with a 47 KOhm input impedance. MM signai does not go through the transformers. The MC input first sends signal through the internal transformers and then to the phonostage's first gain stage. The step-up transformers are Jensen JT-44K-DX, a copy of whose spec sheet from Jensen I attached for you.

While unable to 'prove' those specs, based on my experience with Lamm gear and interactions with Lamm Industries I'm confident that their specifications are not self-contradictory. The LP2/LP2.1 has been around for 18 years. You can e-mail Lamm at: lamm.industries@verizon.net

I'm not one to recommend choosing a phono stage based on a single cartridge nor am I tightly tied to an exact impedance load. However, if you are buying a new unit, Lamm may be able to accommodate a different specific impedance load value.

You can read my 11/2020 review of the Lamm LP2.1 to learn what I heard from it. The review was vetted by Lamm for technical accuracy prior to publication. The phono stage was in my system for long enough time to know it well. The review briefly contrasts the LP2.1 with the ARC Ref 10 Phono.

 

[No Regrets]

Hello Tim,

Thank you so much for your post to this thread as well as sharing the your link. You have done an amazing job with the review that you have written up on the Lamm LP2.1 It sounds like a truly wonderful phono stage!

I've been doing a lot of research on the Lamm LP2.1 as well as the Jensen JT-44K-DX SUT that it uses. I think that I may have stumbled onto something that might explain what my concerns/confusion were....

In general, a SUT with a 1:10 turns ratio; the cartridge should see 470 Ohms when connected to a 47K input impedance of a phono stage. However, when using the internal Jensen JT-44K-DX SUT in which the Lamm LP2.1 uses, the spec sheet says the cartridge will only see 400 Ohms.

I have found that this Jensen transformer was designed to be used with a zobel network (utilizing 6K81 resistance + 200pf of capacitance) in place to dampen transformer ringing and provide more accurate phase response. I am thinking that if this is indeed what Lamm is doing, then when using the moving coil input with the internal Jensen SUT... the input impedance would be roughly 40K Ohms due to the zobel network instead of the standard 47K Ohms which would have the cartridge see 400 Ohms instead of the typical 470 Ohms.

I do believe though, that when using the moving magnet input, the input impedance would still be 47K Ohms as the Zoebel network would only be used on the internal Jensen SUT.

This would make sense to me.... but I am only speculating as I have not been able to communicate directly with Lamm Industries to confirm.

Best Wishes for a healthy and happy New Year!
Don

 

[tima]

I am thinking that if this is indeed what Lamm is doing, then when using the moving coil input with the internal Jensen SUT... the input impedance would be roughly 40K Ohms due to the zobel network instead of the standard 47K Ohms which would have the cartridge see 400 Ohms instead of the typical 470 Ohms.

Well, you have me confused, but that's okay - I assumed you wanted to use your Tango step-up into a 47KOhm moving magnet input. The LP2.1 specs do say the MC input is 400 Ohms.

I don't know what undesirable operating functionality or (more importantly) sonic issue you fear will occur or you think is negative or not to your desire. But that's also okay.

Any chance you have a dealer who will let you try the LP2.1 ? Each unit also comes with detailed results of testing a LP2.1 which might give you more information.

 

[No Regrets]

Hi Tim,

Let me first apologize if my posts have been unclear. I have suffered thru 5 strokes, so it is very difficult at times for me to be able to communicate effectively and to convey the thoughts in my mind thru speech or even on paper.

Let me try again...

* I know that a 1:10 step up ratio into a 47K input impedance should show the cartridge roughly 470 Ohms.
* I know that the Lamm uses internal Jensen SUT's consisting of a 1:10 step up ratio.
* The Lamm spec sheet says when using the MC inputs the cartridge will only see 400 Ohms, but yet the input impedance of the MM inputs (without going thru the Jensen SUT) is 47K Ohms.
* So my confusion was.... if the MM input impedance is truly 47K Ohms, why would the cartridge (when going thru the MC input and the 1:10 Jensen SUT) only see 400 Ohms vs the typical 470 Ohms? This would mean that by using the MC inputs, it is only seeing in input impedance of about 40K Ohms... not 47K Ohms. So, my confusion was.... why is there a difference? That is what I've been trying to understand.
* In my last post, I had said that I have now come across some additional information (that if it is true, this will help me understand). I have found that the Jensen JT-44K-DX SUT transformer was designed to be used with a zobel network (utilizing 6K81 resistance + 200pf of capacitance) in place to dampen transformer ringing and provide more accurate phase response. If this is indeed what Lamm is doing, I believe that this would account for when using the MC input, the input impedance would then be roughly 40K Ohms resulting in the cartridge in seeing a 400 Ohm load in which the Lamm specs discloses. I also said that I do believe though, that when using the moving magnet input, the input impedance would still be 47K Ohms as the Zoebel network would only be used on the internal Jensen SUT.

What I see that I had failed to communicate, is that in my situation, where I am intending to use my Tango SUT's into the moving magnet input, that I should be absolutely fine However, this was very important for me to know and to understand. As many may know, when using external SUT's, there can be a higher risk of hum due to placement of the external SUT... sometimes it works great and other times you might not ever be able to eliminate the hum. So in some cases, you might have to use the internal SUT. It's important for me to know and understand the loading characteristics so that I can match the right cartridge to the internal SUT; as I have found that the loading variable contributes significantly to the sound.

So, in conclusion... I do think that the Lamm LP2.1 moving magnet inputs with my current Benz Ruby ZH cartridge (providing that my Hirata Tango SUT works with it w/out any hum issues) would be an excellent and viable option for my consideration. Your excellently written review of the Lamm describes the sound characteristics of that in which I am looking for It is true that I feel the Luxman EQ-500 would offer greater flexibility to accommodate a wider range of cartridges, but I have not been able to hear from anyone that has been able to compare the sonic characteristics of Lux to the Lamm.

I have had a dealer reach out to me, offering me the opportunity to audition which will be very helpful indeed

Wishing you all the very best in this New Year,
Don

 

[mtemur]

It's important for me to know and understand the loading characteristics so that I can match the right cartridge to the internal SUT; as I have found that the loading variable contributes significantly to the sound.

there may not be a significant difference between 400 and 470 ohms if SUT is in signal chain. if there has been an active stage with resistance loading then there may be a difference between 400 and 470 ohms loading. quality of the SUT has much more impact on sound compared to small loading changes. it's very common to load MC cartridges too low or too high when used with SUT and they still sound good. the same rule may not apply for active stages.

 

[Tangram]

Merry Christmas!

I was wondering if anyone has had an opportunity to compare the Lamm LP2 or LP2.1 to that of the Luxman EQ-500?
I would love to hear your thoughts and experiences that you've had with them.

More than likely, I would be using my Hirata Tango SUT's into the moving magnet input on each.
I love the idea of the flexibility of gain and loading on the Luxman, but I also love how the reviewers talk about the sound reproduction produced by the Lamm LP2.1

Wishing you all the very best of health and happiness this Holiday Season
Don

Hi Don,

Resurrecting this thread almost three years to the day, but now during happier times. Did you ever get a new phono pre? I just acquired a “pre-loved” EQ-500 (factory JJ tubes) for the same SUT/MM flexibility you mention in your original post. While the internal SUTs on the Luxman are okay, I think most decent external SUTs would beat them. Part of the issue is that the MC circuit only has the High MC and Low MC settings. But I think the quality of the external SUT is the main sound determinant. I have an Allnic AUT-2000 SUT connected to the EQ-500, but I haven’t played with the capacitance and impedance settings yet. As it stands, I am getting almost the same sound quality as with the phono stage of my EAR 868pl with NOS Amperex tubes. The EQ-500 gives more bass but with less definition than the EAR. My goal over the holidays is to see if I can adjust the EQ-500 settings to dial in my preferred sound, although it is a bit premature if I decide to swap out the stock tubes.

 

[No Regrets]

Hello @Tangram! Congrats on getting the EQ-500 I agree with you when you say that most decent external SUT's would beat the internal ones, but even on it's own, I think it is a great phono stage! I hope you are able to enjoy it in great health for many, many years!

So, on Feb 17, 2021, about two months after I had started this thread, I placed a deposit with Scott Franklin for his most recent Wavestream Kinetic Deluxe Level 5.1 Reference phono amp. His phono amp has always been on my "bucket list". It is an all tube design currently using (2 x 12AX7, 4 x 6DJ8); with extremely low noise ( I believe with the external power supply, noise is below 1uV (one-millionth of a volt ) competing with the best of the solid state phonos; providing 3 front panel selectable inputs = two MC at 62 dB of gain (without the use of SUT’s or FETS) with a useful cartridge range of 0.2mV to 1.2mV and one MM output at 42dB (you are able to choose your MM gain or you can have 3 MC ); having both balanced and RCA inputs and outputs; adjustable loading available on the back panel via custom loading plugs; and an essentially flat RIAA EQ curve within one tenth of a dB (.1dB) from 3 Hz to 40 Khz. *** The above specs are from the best of my recollection - if you have interest, please consult with Scott Frankland to confirm. He is wonderful to communicate with. ***

It is very dynamic, both in the micro and macro sense, throughout the entire frequency range. It produces rich harmonics that are exhilarating when listening to violin/cello/acoustic bass, both reed and brass instruments, vocals, etc... all without sounding syrupy. It is extremely quiet, plenty of gain and very pure sounding with excellent details ... due to not having to use any FET or Solid State devices, and with no need to use Step Up Transformers and their extra set of interconnects and connections or having to fight with hum issues.

It is extremely solidly built with excellent case work, excellent attention to details and a very well thought out design, by an extremely talented designer and a true gentleman who is absolutely fantastic to deal with, Mr Scott Frankland. ( Having a designer that provides excellent support, timely communications and accessibility is just as important to me as finding a SOTA phono amp ). I feel very blessed to be able to have this piece in my system. At $9K new, I feel it is an absolute steal. Certainly priced well below what many people here would even consider to be an ultra high-end piece.... but sadly you would be missing out dearly by passing this one by. Once in a very great while, you might see one come up for sale on the used market, but not very often. I consider this to be a true testament to the greatness of this phono amp as people who own it, hang on to it. It is not a "flavor of the month" type piece, but rather something that you cherish and would like to pass on to your children.

I'll try and post some pic's of it below....
















I'm quite sure that the both the Lamm and the Luxman are quite excellent. In fact, there are a great many phono stages available that are wonderful.... what a fantastic time to be into vinyl!

I absolutely love my Wavestream. It puts a smile on my face every day I use it and I can absolutely say that I have No Regrets in adding it to my system.

Best wishes to you all and Happy New Year!
Don

 

[Tangram]

Hello @Tangram! Congrats on getting the EQ-500 I agree with you when you say that most decent external SUT's would beat the internal ones, but even on it's own, I think it is a great phono stage! I hope you are able to enjoy it in great health for many, many years!

So, on Feb 17, 2021, about two months after I had started this thread, I placed a deposit with Scott Franklin for his most recent Wavestream Kinetic Deluxe Level 5.1 Reference phono amp. His phono amp has always been on my "bucket list". It is an all tube design currently using (2 x 12AX7, 4 x 6DJ8); with extremely low noise ( I believe with the external power supply, noise is below 1uV (one-millionth of a volt ) competing with the best of the solid state phonos; providing 3 front panel selectable inputs = two MC at 62 dB of gain (without the use of SUT’s or FETS) with a useful cartridge range of 0.2mV to 1.2mV and one MM output at 42dB (you are able to choose your MM gain or you can have 3 MC ); having both balanced and RCA inputs and outputs; adjustable loading available on the back panel via custom loading plugs; and an essentially flat RIAA EQ curve within one tenth of a dB (.1dB) from 3 Hz to 40 Khz. *** The above specs are from the best of my recollection - if you have interest, please consult with Scott Frankland to confirm. He is wonderful to communicate with. ***

It is very dynamic, both in the micro and macro sense, throughout the entire frequency range. It produces rich harmonics that are exhilarating when listening to violin/cello/acoustic bass, both reed and brass instruments, vocals, etc... all without sounding syrupy. It is extremely quiet, plenty of gain and very pure sounding with excellent details ... due to not having to use any FET or Solid State devices, and with no need to use Step Up Transformers and their extra set of interconnects and connections or having to fight with hum issues.

It is extremely solidly built with excellent case work, excellent attention to details and a very well thought out design, by an extremely talented designer and a true gentleman who is absolutely fantastic to deal with, Mr Scott Frankland. ( Having a designer that provides excellent support, timely communications and accessibility is just as important to me as finding a SOTA phono amp ). I feel very blessed to be able to have this piece in my system. At $9K new, I feel it is an absolute steal. Certainly priced well below what many people here would even consider to be an ultra high-end piece.... but sadly you would be missing out dearly by passing this one by. Once in a very great while, you might see one come up for sale on the used market, but not very often. I consider this to be a true testament to the greatness of this phono amp as people who own it, hang on to it. It is not a "flavor of the month" type piece, but rather something that you cherish and would like to pass on to your children.

I'll try and post some pic's of it below....

View attachment 122536


View attachment 122537


View attachment 122538


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View attachment 122541


I'm quite sure that the both the Lamm and the Luxman are quite excellent. In fact, there are a great many phono stages available that are wonderful.... what a fantastic time to be into vinyl!

I absolutely love my Wavestream. It puts a smile on my face every day I use it and I can absolutely say that I have No Regrets in adding it to my system.

Best wishes to you all and Happy New Year!
Don

Thanks for sharing your wonderful story Don. And congratulations on adding such an incredible piece of gear to your system. It very much sounds like this is a phono preamp designed by someone who truly understands what audiophiles want/need in an endgame piece of equipment. And I agree that it looks like great value relative to some other offerings in the high end space.