Mike, Thank you for this announcement. I look forward to your active participation in the vinyl related threads again. And I am most interested in reading what you can share with us about the new Durand gimbal bearing tonearm in one of your vinyl threads. I also look forward to someday reading what Ron thinks of his future AS2000, the SME 3012R arms and how he will eventually be using his turntable, arm, and cartridge combinations. Great stuff.
I said I would never buy another Turntable...Argh !!!
- Thread starter rockitman
- Start date
The AS2000 comes with 4 armboards for SME's. If one wants to put an arm other than SME he has to order a custom one with possibly a custom arm post too. I wanted to put SAT on AS2000 I had to order a specific armbase and arm post for it with cost. The manufacturer has to fabricate them to fit geometry of the arm..not off the rack. I also had to pay for arm post and armboard when I want to put Axioms as back arms for Af1 and 927.
Tang
Tang
I feel more sorry for myself than I do you in this situation, as I am now being robbed of the experience of being able to read what you would have written on the sound of the table in your system.
Seriously though, I am glad that you're happy enough with the way music is being presented in your system now, that you didn't feel it necessary to add, what may be, the current ultimate table.
I very much look forward to reading your continued thoughts and experiences on your vinyl and digital quest.
I feel more sorry for myself than I do you in this situation, as I am now being robbed of the experience of being able to read what you would have written on the sound of the table in your system.
Seriously though, I am glad that you're happy enough with the way music is being presented in your system now, that you didn't feel it necessary to add, what may be, the current ultimate table.
I very much look forward to reading your continued thoughts and experiences on your vinyl and digital quest.
I agree. I was very much looking forward to reading Mike's commentary. I think Mike would have written about his direct experience with this table relative to his extensive experience with other top tables in his revealing system. And there would have been the shared observations and impressions from his listeners. That would have been fun reading and very informative. I also wonder now if a Durand arm will ever see the AS2000. I think it is a testament to the NVS that Mike is so happy with it and has decided to continue to use it as his reference.
The AS2000 certainly looks well designed and made, and it is expensive, but it may be too early to reach the consensus that it is the current ultimate table, if such a thing is even possible. What matters is that Tang, Christian, and David seem to prefer the AS2000 to their other tables which is an indication of their preference for it relative to those other tables in their collections. Those tables are impressive, so that says a lot.
I wasn't saying that it is the ultimate turntable, as much as it may be. Which it just might be. Though yes, I understand that ultimate isn't universal.
I did not really know where to post this, but figured that this is Rockitman's thread about his quest for the ultimate turntable.
I had the great pleasure to visit Christian again yesterday. I first met him about five years ago. For those who do not know him, Christian is an extremely friendly fellow with a wild passion for what is best. He is an accomplished bird photographer, he has two incredible cars in his garage, and he loves music. He has formed a very impressive collection of LPs and tapes, and he has assembled a system fully capable of playing this fine collection and extracting the emotional content imbedded in the media.
When I first visited Christian, it was to hear his new TechDAS AF1 and massive Pass XS mono amps. I was impressed then by the immense size of the sound. Christian followed the Grateful Dead for years making bootleg tapes. Their performances were known for the "wall of sound" effect that the massive stacked amps and speakers produced. This must have had some influence on Christian's set up at that time. The sound was large, forward, and immediate, but it was a bit flat and lacked presence. The TechDAS AF1 was digital-like in its silence. I was impressed, but there was a sameness to all the music he played for me that time.
Fast forward five years. I was driving from Rochester, NY back to Boston after delivering my beloved Mini 2 speakers to their new owner. Christian was exactly half way along the journey, so I contacted him hoping to be able to take a break, see him again, and hear the turntable and tonearm that have garnered so much discussion in these pages, the AS2000.
The system has been completely transformed. It could still sound big when the recording was big, but now it had a nuance and transparency that was simply absent before. Each recording he played sounded different in terms of scale, listening perspective, and recording quality. The system was a chameleon. Large scale, small scale, mono, stereo, tape, LP, whatever he played sounded different, but there was a common thread: naturalness.
David has mentioned this many times, but the words have much more meaning once the attribute is actually heard in person. I asked Christian what had changed since the last time I was there. Obviously the turntable, SME 3012R arms, some cartridges, and the Lamm phono stage. He also said that he moved the listening seat further back and tweaked the speaker position a bit making it precisely symmetrical with a laser device. I happen to think that improvement in set up is responsible for a great deal of the quality of the improvement.
We compared different combinations of arm/cartridge/phono/turntable, but mostly we just played the music and relaxed. Here is one particular example of a recording I actually brought with me five years ago and introduced to Christian: Beethoven's Appassionata 45 RPM Direct to Disk on RCA. This is a famous recording and can be particularly difficult to reproduce because of the incredible dynamic range and complexity of multiple notes being played at the same time. The sheer complexity of tone can be a severe challenge to a system. I have never heard this LP sound better, anywhere. Huge up front sound, just like it was recorded, but ultra clean with resolution, clarity, and body/weight/warmth like the real thing. I was astonished. We heard the recording on three different arm/cart/phono combinations. Each sounded different, and presented a different perspective on the music. My favorite was the Koetsu Coralstone Diamond on a Graham arm and AS2000 table through the Allnic phono stage.
A different combination was the TechDAS AF1 table, different Graham arm, Koetsu Tiger Eye and Allnic phono. This sounded really big but had a mid hall softness. Less vivid with less resolution. More blended sound, but close up perspective, so it was inconsistent. The listener was close up but the resolution was like it was further back, so that was a bit strange. Then back to the AS2000 table, Lamm phono, SME 3012R arm, and Ortofon SPU 95. This sounded in between. Slightly further back and slightly less resolution, but very good and realistic, believable. It was fascinating to hear three takes on the same music. I would have like to hear the Coralstone on a 3012R through the Lamm, but that particular combination was not set up.
We then listened to another favorite that I had brought five years ago: Vivaldi Les Concertos Pour Mandolines, Erato. Wow, the clarity of those mandolines with the plucking and back up strings. Incredible. There was depth, nuance, presence, dynamics and ease to the sound. We also heard a Decca recording with a Decca cartridge on a 3012R, some mono recordings on the 3012R and Lyra Olympos mono cartridge: Masterpieces by Ellington, Mood Indigo, reissue and a Starker mono Bach cello suite. Each time I was struck by just how different each recording sounded and how immediate and real it was. They were different in terms of listening perspective and scale, but they all had a realness to them.
Christian did a few demos for me. On the solo piano, we compared two combinations of arms/cartridges/tables/phono, but he said the biggest contributor to the sound were the two tables. Two different Graham arms and Koetsu cartridges and tube phonos, but those were relatively similar. The AF1 just sounded flat and dull. It was a bit overdamped compared to the AS2000 which had more life and energy. Perhaps all of that vacuum hold down, air suspension and isolation was sucking some life out of the sound. I don't really know, and I would never have suspected this without hearing them side by side. He also showed me the effect of the active isolation of the Herzan table. When it was engaged, sure enough, just as David mentioned, the sound became dull. Christian said that the servos fight the rotating platter creating a feedback loop which muddies the sound (paraphrasing).
Finally, we compared a tape of Dark Side of the Moon to an excellent LP version. They both sounded superb but different. The tape had just a bit more detail, but it was subtle. The biggest difference was that the tape was slightly less enveloping because the phase and spatial effects had not been added to the mix for the vinyl yet. That was interesting. Another testament to just how transparent and revealing Christian's system is now.
The three highlights for me were the solo Beethoven piano, which I've never heard sound more real, the solo cello, and Ellington's Mood Indigo. All three were in the room present with astonishingly real levels of dynamics, tone, and resolution. Oh, I forgot to mention the bass quality and dynamics were also superb. Bass was extremely articulate, extended, and nuanced. Dynamics were explosive when called for and extremely detailed with pizzicato.
The AS2000 (along with the speaker position and seating changes) has transformed the Rockitman's system. David is right about the "natural" sound of his turntable/3012R combination. If the rest of the system is up to it, one is indeed moved to something "Beyond". What an accomplishment. Congratulations to David and to Christian. It will be very interesting to see how the system changes in Rockitman's new house.
I had the great pleasure to visit Christian again yesterday. I first met him about five years ago. For those who do not know him, Christian is an extremely friendly fellow with a wild passion for what is best. He is an accomplished bird photographer, he has two incredible cars in his garage, and he loves music. He has formed a very impressive collection of LPs and tapes, and he has assembled a system fully capable of playing this fine collection and extracting the emotional content imbedded in the media.
When I first visited Christian, it was to hear his new TechDAS AF1 and massive Pass XS mono amps. I was impressed then by the immense size of the sound. Christian followed the Grateful Dead for years making bootleg tapes. Their performances were known for the "wall of sound" effect that the massive stacked amps and speakers produced. This must have had some influence on Christian's set up at that time. The sound was large, forward, and immediate, but it was a bit flat and lacked presence. The TechDAS AF1 was digital-like in its silence. I was impressed, but there was a sameness to all the music he played for me that time.
Fast forward five years. I was driving from Rochester, NY back to Boston after delivering my beloved Mini 2 speakers to their new owner. Christian was exactly half way along the journey, so I contacted him hoping to be able to take a break, see him again, and hear the turntable and tonearm that have garnered so much discussion in these pages, the AS2000.
The system has been completely transformed. It could still sound big when the recording was big, but now it had a nuance and transparency that was simply absent before. Each recording he played sounded different in terms of scale, listening perspective, and recording quality. The system was a chameleon. Large scale, small scale, mono, stereo, tape, LP, whatever he played sounded different, but there was a common thread: naturalness.
David has mentioned this many times, but the words have much more meaning once the attribute is actually heard in person. I asked Christian what had changed since the last time I was there. Obviously the turntable, SME 3012R arms, some cartridges, and the Lamm phono stage. He also said that he moved the listening seat further back and tweaked the speaker position a bit making it precisely symmetrical with a laser device. I happen to think that improvement in set up is responsible for a great deal of the quality of the improvement.
We compared different combinations of arm/cartridge/phono/turntable, but mostly we just played the music and relaxed. Here is one particular example of a recording I actually brought with me five years ago and introduced to Christian: Beethoven's Appassionata 45 RPM Direct to Disk on RCA. This is a famous recording and can be particularly difficult to reproduce because of the incredible dynamic range and complexity of multiple notes being played at the same time. The sheer complexity of tone can be a severe challenge to a system. I have never heard this LP sound better, anywhere. Huge up front sound, just like it was recorded, but ultra clean with resolution, clarity, and body/weight/warmth like the real thing. I was astonished. We heard the recording on three different arm/cart/phono combinations. Each sounded different, and presented a different perspective on the music. My favorite was the Koetsu Coralstone Diamond on a Graham arm and AS2000 table through the Allnic phono stage.
A different combination was the TechDAS AF1 table, different Graham arm, Koetsu Tiger Eye and Allnic phono. This sounded really big but had a mid hall softness. Less vivid with less resolution. More blended sound, but close up perspective, so it was inconsistent. The listener was close up but the resolution was like it was further back, so that was a bit strange. Then back to the AS2000 table, Lamm phono, SME 3012R arm, and Ortofon SPU 95. This sounded in between. Slightly further back and slightly less resolution, but very good and realistic, believable. It was fascinating to hear three takes on the same music. I would have like to hear the Coralstone on a 3012R through the Lamm, but that particular combination was not set up.
We then listened to another favorite that I had brought five years ago: Vivaldi Les Concertos Pour Mandolines, Erato. Wow, the clarity of those mandolines with the plucking and back up strings. Incredible. There was depth, nuance, presence, dynamics and ease to the sound. We also heard a Decca recording with a Decca cartridge on a 3012R, some mono recordings on the 3012R and Lyra Olympos mono cartridge: Masterpieces by Ellington, Mood Indigo, reissue and a Starker mono Bach cello suite. Each time I was struck by just how different each recording sounded and how immediate and real it was. They were different in terms of listening perspective and scale, but they all had a realness to them.
Christian did a few demos for me. On the solo piano, we compared two combinations of arms/cartridges/tables/phono, but he said the biggest contributor to the sound were the two tables. Two different Graham arms and Koetsu cartridges and tube phonos, but those were relatively similar. The AF1 just sounded flat and dull. It was a bit overdamped compared to the AS2000 which had more life and energy. Perhaps all of that vacuum hold down, air suspension and isolation was sucking some life out of the sound. I don't really know, and I would never have suspected this without hearing them side by side. He also showed me the effect of the active isolation of the Herzan table. When it was engaged, sure enough, just as David mentioned, the sound became dull. Christian said that the servos fight the rotating platter creating a feedback loop which muddies the sound (paraphrasing).
Finally, we compared a tape of Dark Side of the Moon to an excellent LP version. They both sounded superb but different. The tape had just a bit more detail, but it was subtle. The biggest difference was that the tape was slightly less enveloping because the phase and spatial effects had not been added to the mix for the vinyl yet. That was interesting. Another testament to just how transparent and revealing Christian's system is now.
The three highlights for me were the solo Beethoven piano, which I've never heard sound more real, the solo cello, and Ellington's Mood Indigo. All three were in the room present with astonishingly real levels of dynamics, tone, and resolution. Oh, I forgot to mention the bass quality and dynamics were also superb. Bass was extremely articulate, extended, and nuanced. Dynamics were explosive when called for and extremely detailed with pizzicato.
The AS2000 (along with the speaker position and seating changes) has transformed the Rockitman's system. David is right about the "natural" sound of his turntable/3012R combination. If the rest of the system is up to it, one is indeed moved to something "Beyond". What an accomplishment. Congratulations to David and to Christian. It will be very interesting to see how the system changes in Rockitman's new house.
I understand, but that was certainly not my intention. The monos on the 3012R with Lyra Olympus mono sounded incredible. Christian may be able to clarify the exact combinations, but I did not like the SME/Ortofon SPU A95? as much as the Coralstone/Graham. We only played the various combinations as they were set up at the time. The phono was also different with some, so I am trying not to make definitive claims about individual components but rather the combinations. And I am taking Christian's word, based on his extensive time with each, that the main contributor to the overall sound is the turntable in these particular combinations. It all sounded fantastic except for the combinations that involved the Ortofon SPU and the AF1. And in those cases, it was in degrees and highly subject to my own preferences for realism and naturalness.
No..it's the cart. The diamond cantilevered Coralstone is indeed special. I expect it to sound even better on a 3012R, if that is even possible....I have been waiting to make the move for that cart from Graham to SME. It may not happen until I move the system in January. I also have Master Sig Colibri waiting patiently in the box still. I am told this cart is special too.
Thank you for visiting Peter. It was nice to catch up and I appreciate your perspective on my system today vs 5 years ago. As we discussed, a system is never static (we hope) and is always evolving....hopefully in the right direction.
The SPU A95 (or any SPU) will never be as resolving as the Coralstone. Also, that cart was installed the last time I listened to the system a month ago and only had the VTA in the ballpark/not optimized. It is still not broken in yet as it only had 40 sides of play so far. I expect it to improve with play and an optimized setup. SPU's are not a substitute for the top echelon carts. They are however a nice diversion for listening variety. I really enjoyed your visit Peter. Thanks again for the detailed write-up.
Thank you for the kind comments and glad you enjoyed your time with Chris, you should visit him again after he moves to his new home when he's not hindered by the room. I can understand your comments about the SPU A95 it took me a long time to warm to it but I love it now. It was dull and boring for the first 3 months when I first got and then it opened up suddenly and bloomed to a full bodied rich sound. Still it's far from a neutral cartridge but has beautiful rich tones that melt you on strings along with a sense of space and dimension that make it irresistible for a violin sonata.
david
While the RM's make a significant difference....leaving them and the turntable out of the discussion for the moment...it was my optimized speaker setup that was responsible for the majority of the improvement Peter was hearing.
It wasn't mentioned but Peter was able to hear the effects of active isolation on my AS2000 TT. He preferred the sound w/o active isolation engaged as I was able to toggle the switch on and off while listening to a track. It was clear and obvious to him that active isolation is a detriment to the sound of the AS2000. I had a similar experience with my Clearaudio Master Innovation. (Edit...it was mentioned by Peter....my bad)
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