Hifi and getting old

steve59

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2018
356
112
150
I got out to listen to the new Dali Kore yesterday before the shop does an official unveiling so the place was fairly empty. Visceral is the word I would use first, but in the context of this thread after reading the comments here and my experience yesterday I think i'll be alright. Room treatment, setup and a lack of new music have been making it difficult to pay attention to the music. As impressive as the blades are they are quite different than anything else i've had in my room before and after spending an afternoon listening to what a proper system can sound like I went to work in the evening to try and improve things. Moving the seat closer to the speakers and working on first reflection points really helped with soundstage and imaging. IDK if the shop owner read this thread or just knows me, but he began our conversation with recommending I try classical music for a change which I will, but also snapping a pic of his history page on roon gave me some new leads for the immediate future.

hopefully this will get me on track. thanks for all the input and if you can listen to the new Dali Kore do it
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ron Resnick

Fishfood

VIP/Donor
Jul 11, 2020
537
541
255
44
so you don’t clean your LPs, use the brush, and for carts without round contours you don’t use anti skating, SRA, VTA? Your cart never had to be re tipped? You used a forsell, was that simple as well with no re adjustment of tone arm required? Additionally use your vacuum or any static removal

Btw I am not addressing any tweaks here just basic requirements. You could get different protractors, analog magik or Wally tools

and you haven’t spent time organising your LPs?

And still music won’t be at your fingertips unless you have a massive collection with each LP easy to pick out
But it's a hobby right? I think for me, the analogue hassle is just the hobby part and the listening is just the payoff. If you have a remote control airplane that you love to fly (or if you are a pilot with a real plane) you aren't spending the whole time flying. Much is in the preparation. And the pleasure comes in the preparation as well as the final event.

When I have too much choice, I stop listening because I start jumping around from song to song and it makes me crazy. But that's my mental issue and why I much prefer just having 1300 LPs to 60 million digital songs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gardener

wil

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2015
1,522
1,548
428
I got out to listen to the new Dali Kore yesterday before the shop does an official unveiling so the place was fairly empty. Visceral is the word I would use first, but in the context of this thread after reading the comments here and my experience yesterday I think i'll be alright. Room treatment, setup and a lack of new music have been making it difficult to pay attention to the music. As impressive as the blades are they are quite different than anything else i've had in my room before and after spending an afternoon listening to what a proper system can sound like I went to work in the evening to try and improve things. Moving the seat closer to the speakers and working on first reflection points really helped with soundstage and imaging. IDK if the shop owner read this thread or just knows me, but he began our conversation with recommending I try classical music for a change which I will, but also snapping a pic of his history page on roon gave me some new leads for the immediate future.

hopefully this will get me on track. thanks for all the input and if you can listen to the new Dali Kore do it

Beyond your room, seat location, speakers and ( suspect advice that it's because you're not using vinyl)...

Have you considered your mental state when you're listening? I know that being tired or distracted can have a huge effect on my ability to fully engage with music. I've often found that early in the morning, when the head-palate is clean, is a great time for listening.
 

steve59

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2018
356
112
150
Beyond your room, seat location, speakers and ( suspect advice that it's because you're not using vinyl)...

Have you considered your mental state when you're listening? I know that being tired or distracted can have a huge effect on my ability to fully engage with music. I've often found that early in the morning, when the head-palate is clean, is a great time for listening.
The last couple years have been the most trying in my adult life losing family members, gaining family members with the responsibilities that go along, personal health issues that seem to get many of us that make it past 60, winter in Chicago, precisely why I need the escape of my music.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,702
2,790
Portugal
so you don’t clean your LPs, use the brush, and for carts without round contours you don’t use anti skating, SRA, VTA? Your cart never had to be re tipped?

For many decades, only an occasional slight cleaning with an antistatic Oracle brush before playing in case I could see some dust - I never got used records and kept mine in pristine condition. I can't consider the very occasional set up or changing the cartridge an hassle - not more than going through the regular procedures of signature of digital music or connecting server or DAC cables. In fact moving the Taiko Extreme is harder than moving an SME 30!

You used a Forsell, was that simple as well with no re adjustment of tone arm required?

The Forsell tonearm just needs VTA and tracking force if we use a straight cartridge. My current Graham comes with an excellent set up tool - both are a five minutes set up affair.

Additionally use your vacuum or any static removal

Very seldom, in fact I sold all my cleaning machines, except a VPI17, just in case of a disaster with a cherished LP.

Btw I am not addressing any tweaks here just basic requirements. You could get different protractors, analog magik or Wally tools

In fact I would love to use the analog magik or a similar computer based instrument, but mostly for the fun of it. I stick to M Fremer 82 degree SRA.

and you haven’t spent time organising your LPs?

I only own about four thousand LPs, easy and fast to organize and keep in place. Only exceptionally I took more than five LPs for a regular listening session and ranged them after switching the system off.

And still music won’t be at your fingertips unless you have a massive collection with each LP easy to pick out

I still usually find an LP in less than two minutes in my LP shelves.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,702
2,790
Portugal
I do not know what is your definition of “hassle,” but compared to holding an iPad and playing any music you want with a tap or two vinyl undeniably is a hassle.

Eating a steak compared to eating an hamburger also becomes an hassle to you? ;)

My definition of hassle includes annoyance or bothering, I am now curious about yours.
 

Barry2013

VIP/Donor
Oct 12, 2013
2,308
488
418
Essex UK
I got out to listen to the new Dali Kore yesterday before the shop does an official unveiling so the place was fairly empty. Visceral is the word I would use first, but in the context of this thread after reading the comments here and my experience yesterday I think i'll be alright. Room treatment, setup and a lack of new music have been making it difficult to pay attention to the music. As impressive as the blades are they are quite different than anything else i've had in my room before and after spending an afternoon listening to what a proper system can sound like I went to work in the evening to try and improve things. Moving the seat closer to the speakers and working on first reflection points really helped with soundstage and imaging. IDK if the shop owner read this thread or just knows me, but he began our conversation with recommending I try classical music for a change which I will, but also snapping a pic of his history page on roon gave me some new leads for the immediate future.

hopefully this will get me on track. thanks for all the input and if you can listen to the new Dali Kore do it
Well reviewed in a recent issue of HFNRR
 

Rt66indierock

Active Member
Jul 1, 2022
144
73
35
70
The last couple years have been the most trying in my adult life losing family members, gaining family members with the responsibilities that go along, personal health issues that seem to get many of us that make it past 60, winter in Chicago, precisely why I need the escape of my music.
You need the escape of music not my music. This worked for me since 1975 until a dark time in my life required a 24/7 dose of KPIG-FM radio over the web. After recovering these worked again.

“Nantucket Sleighride” Mountain Live version
“Time Was”, “Blowin Free” and “The King Will Come” Wish Bone Ash Argus
“Chateau Lafitte ’59 Boogie” Foghat Rock and Roll Outlaws

These were my emotional boost since 1975, everyone needs something similar they don’t listen to regularly but will provide a boost when needed.

Ona serious note grab “The Three Boxes of Life and How to Get Out of Them” by Nelson Bolles. Good advice since 1978.
 

steve59

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2018
356
112
150
I'm fairly confident the dealer would order me a pair of those speakers, but if anybody in my family found out how much they cost I would become very lonely, very fast.

I'm working on placement and it is helping, that and trying new music.
 

godofwealth

Well-Known Member
Feb 8, 2022
600
908
108
63
An old myth. Please read https://medium.com/intuitionmachine/the-digital-and-analog-nature-of-biology-3cb30364cc09

And it is well known that the eye retina is digital - it is why analog purists listen with closed eyes. ;)



Yes, we should persuade young audiophiles to use absorbers in their ears to reduce bandwidth when evaluating equipment.
Folks,

I scanned through the Medium article. Utter poppycock. This is pseudoscience. If you want to cite authority, try a prestigious journal like Nature. As someone who’s spent the last 40 years of his academic/industrial career studying brain-inspired computer models, let me say there’s a huge amount going on in biology we have absolutely no clue about. We have spent hundreds of billions of dollars in research funds over the past 70-100 years trying to figure the brain out. We are not close to solving this mystery. Even the most basic questions like how you recognize your mother or that you’re hearing classical music, not jazz, or that you’re eating pizza are completely unknown. There’s tremendous amounts of data and a few basic things we have learned. But no, it’s not like physics or chemistry or math. The brain remains a black box.

Whether the brain is analog or digital has been debated in my field for decades. The short answer: no one knows. Clearly, DNA is digital in some aspects, but it’s just a code. The real work is done by proteins and they’re very analog. Consider this. Your brain has a 100 billion neurons, each of which makes roughly 1000 (analog) connections with other neurons. That’s more than 100 trillion real analog connections. Each neuron’s working is described by a complex partial differential equation called the Hodgkin Huxley model, after its inventors who won the Nobel prize for their work. I took a whole course in grad school where we spent the entire semester studying one neuron.It is very very analog. Chemical and electrical signals and each synapse where two neurons meet exchange a complex set of neurotransmitter molecules.


But the real dilemma is the brain is not like any computer ever built. It’s a self organizing system. The embryo develops into all the trillions of cells in your body, one piece of which becomes your brain. Your DNA cannot code all this complexity. It’s a set of high level instructions. What happens is that as the brain forms when you are still growing in the womb, millions of neurons die. So it’s very stochastic. Each of our brains at a very coarse level is similar. But a fine grained level, our brain connections are very different. That’s because complex local analog processes form these analog connections. It’s a huge mystery how a lot of animals have hard coded behaviors like walking and running. If you’re born in the African savannah, like a zebra, you don't have 6 months to learn to walk, like humans. You don’t run, you are breakfast for a hungry lion. Animals in the wild are faced with the threat of dying every second of every day they are alive. Finding food and not dying are the most pressing problems. That's what shaped our brains. Animals are hardwired with the essential survival skills. How that data is passed from the DNA to the brain is completely unknown.

I could write pages on this stuff, but let’s not waste time arguing over analog vs digital for the brain. There’s both, and it’s very complex interactions at the molecular level that shape our brains. If you want to read a crazy theory of how the brain works, read this book by a Nobel prize winning physicist written a couple of decades ago. His thesis is the brain is a quantum computer.


I used to think Roger Penrose was crazy, but then it was discovered that the way birds navigate for thousands of miles over oceans in complete darkness and in all weather is that their retinas have these particular molecules that respond to the earth’s magnetic field using quantum entanglement, a crazy science fiction like phenomena that led to this year’s Nobel prize in physics. Yup, birds have quantum computers in their eyes. It’s not digital!


Quantum entanglement is this crazy phenomena where you can send two particles off thousands of miles apart, and do a measurement on one particle and voila’, the other particle responds to that instantly. Einstein called it “spooky action at a distance”. It violates the principle that nothing travels faster than light. It’s absolutely mind blowing that nature works this way. Yet every experiment done over 50 years says that’s how nature works.


In a few decades, the Internet may work by quantum entanglement where data is transmitted instantly with no delays, even faster than light through optical fiber technology.

So, if apparently lowly birds use quantum entanglement with their tiny brains to navigate, who knows what’s going on inside our massively larger brains? We could be using a sophisticated form of quantum computing that we don’t know yet. So simple distinctions like analog vs digital are pointless. The brain, if it’s doing quantum processing, is at a completely different level. One we have no clue about at all. It’s like dark matter. Most of the mass in the universe is unexplained. Physicists call it dark matter because they have no clue what it is. And physics is so much further, centuries ahead, of where brain models are.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,219
13,681
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
Very, very interesting! Thank you for all of this background information.

(All I could tell from the Medium article, based not on science but on basic logic, was that it was poppycock.)
 
Last edited:

the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
3,641
4,896
940
Folks,

I scanned through the Medium article. Utter poppycock. This is pseudoscience. If you want to cite authority, try a prestigious journal like Nature. As someone who’s spent the last 40 years of his academic/industrial career studying brain-inspired computer models, let me say there’s a huge amount going on in biology we have absolutely no clue about. We have spent hundreds of billions of dollars in research funds over the past 70-100 years trying to figure the brain out. We are not close to solving this mystery. Even the most basic questions like how you recognize your mother or that you’re hearing classical music, not jazz, or that you’re eating pizza are completely unknown. There’s tremendous amounts of data and a few basic things we have learned. But no, it’s not like physics or chemistry or math. The brain remains a black box.

Whether the brain is analog or digital has been debated in my field for decades. The short answer: no one knows. Clearly, DNA is digital in some aspects, but it’s just a code. The real work is done by proteins and they’re very analog. Consider this. Your brain has a 100 billion neurons, each of which makes roughly 1000 (analog) connections with other neurons. That’s more than 100 trillion real analog connections. Each neuron’s working is described by a complex partial differential equation called the Hodgkin Huxley model, after its inventors who won the Nobel prize for their work. I took a whole course in grad school where we spent the entire semester studying one neuron.It is very very analog. Chemical and electrical signals and each synapse where two neurons meet exchange a complex set of neurotransmitter molecules.


But the real dilemma is the brain is not like any computer ever built. It’s a self organizing system. The embryo develops into all the trillions of cells in your body, one piece of which becomes your brain. Your DNA cannot code all this complexity. It’s a set of high level instructions. What happens is that as the brain forms when you are still growing in the womb, millions of neurons die. So it’s very stochastic. Each of our brains at a very coarse level is similar. But a fine grained level, our brain connections are very different. That’s because complex local analog processes form these analog connections. It’s a huge mystery how a lot of animals have hard coded behaviors like walking and running. If you’re born in the African savannah, like a zebra, you don't have 6 months to learn to walk, like humans. You don’t run, you are breakfast for a hungry lion. Animals in the wild are faced with the threat of dying every second of every day they are alive. Finding food and not dying are the most pressing problems. That's what shaped our brains. Animals are hardwired with the essential survival skills. How that data is passed from the DNA to the brain is completely unknown.

I could write pages on this stuff, but let’s not waste time arguing over analog vs digital for the brain. There’s both, and it’s very complex interactions at the molecular level that shape our brains. If you want to read a crazy theory of how the brain works, read this book by a Nobel prize winning physicist written a couple of decades ago. His thesis is the brain is a quantum computer.


I used to think Roger Penrose was crazy, but then it was discovered that the way birds navigate for thousands of miles over oceans in complete darkness and in all weather is that their retinas have these particular molecules that respond to the earth’s magnetic field using quantum entanglement, a crazy science fiction like phenomena that led to this year’s Nobel prize in physics. Yup, birds have quantum computers in their eyes. It’s not digital!


Quantum entanglement is this crazy phenomena where you can send two particles off thousands of miles apart, and do a measurement on one particle and voila’, the other particle responds to that instantly. Einstein called it “spooky action at a distance”. It violates the principle that nothing travels faster than light. It’s absolutely mind blowing that nature works this way. Yet every experiment done over 50 years says that’s how nature works.


In a few decades, the Internet may work by quantum entanglement where data is transmitted instantly with no delays, even faster than light through optical fiber technology.

So, if apparently lowly birds use quantum entanglement with their tiny brains to navigate, who knows what’s going on inside our massively larger brains? We could be using a sophisticated form of quantum computing that we don’t know yet. So simple distinctions like analog vs digital are pointless. The brain, if it’s doing quantum processing, is at a completely different level. One we have no clue about at all. It’s like dark matter. Most of the mass in the universe is unexplained. Physicists call it dark matter because they have no clue what it is. And physics is so much further, centuries ahead, of where brain models are.
This is why I struggle when our fellow audiophiles tell us that audio science has human perceptual modelling all figured out… if the very best and brightest in the extreme genius end of sciences like neuroscience haven’t got this actually sussed out with the kinds of phenomenal research budgets available to the very top end of medical science then what chance a couple of diy EE solder jockeys getting together and getting it figured out first after doing a couple of double blinds... hmmm it may not be rocket science… but it is however at least neuroscience :eek:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Lagonda and ddk

Tuckers

VIP/Donor
Nov 18, 2020
320
257
310
55
Where did the goosebumps go?
The magic, as they say, is in the midrange. The suggestion to listen to Acapella's (or some other horns) is good, as they have a sublime midrange (though I'm not sure they are many audiophiles end journey speaker). Sometimes our journey focuses too much on the extreme frequencies, and we can lose the thread. And perception of the midrange is not diminished with age related hearing changes generally. Systems that focus on soul and tone may give that chicken skin experience once again!
 

godofwealth

Well-Known Member
Feb 8, 2022
600
908
108
63
This is why I struggle when our fellow audiophiles tell us that audio science has human perceptual modelling all figured out… if the very best and brightest in the extreme genius end of sciences like neuroscience haven’t got this actually sussed out with the kinds of phenomenal research budgets available to the very top end of medical science then what chance a couple of diy EE solder jockeys getting together and getting it figured out first after doing a couple of double blinds... hmmm it may not be rocket science… but it is however at least neuroscience :eek:
Here’s an utterly mind blowing fact about human hearing that I have a hard time comprehending. At some frequencies where we are most sensitive, our eardrum moves less than one tenth the width of a hydrogen atom! Quote from the following article, a great summary of what we know about human hearing.

Just ponder the significance of this fact. How in the blazes can our eardrum detect such a tiny displacement? There’s air molecules rushing about inside our ears and these molecules are vastly larger in size than a hydrogen atom! Yet out of all this blooming buzzing noise, the ear picks out a teensy weensy vibration that moves the eardrum one-billionth of a centimeter! Put that in your pipe and smoke it! So, no wonder our ears are vastly vastly more sensitive than any measuring instrument ever designed!


“For example, at some sound frequencies, the vibrations of the eardrum are as small as one-billionth of a centimeter which is about one-tenth of the diameter of the hydrogen atom”
 

pjwd

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
518
357
298
Brisbane
You need the escape of music not my music. This worked for me since 1975 until a dark time in my life required a 24/7 dose of KPIG-FM radio over the web. After recovering these worked again.

“Nantucket Sleighride” Mountain Live version
“Time Was”, “Blowin Free” and “The King Will Come” Wish Bone Ash Argus
“Chateau Lafitte ’59 Boogie” Foghat Rock and Roll Outlaws

These were my emotional boost since 1975, everyone needs something similar they don’t listen to regularly but will provide a boost when needed.

Ona serious note grab “The Three Boxes of Life and How to Get Out of Them” by Nelson Bolles. Good advice since 1978.
Love the twin guitars on Argus .. still crank it when no ones around :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dentdog

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
2,181
691
1,200
Alto, NM
Your priorities and hearing change as you age. I listen to XM radio alot. Low streaming rate but I listen to the music and not the gear. Best advice. As others have suggested, new music.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Long Live Analog

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing