CH Precision C1

morricab

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With the Lampi DHT output section the tube's Rp (plate resistance) is the output impedance, which is generally much higher than typical and this can make a big difference in some systems depending on the preamp's input impedance. You'd also need to find the ideal bias for each tube type which isn't done afaik, so there are some factors that make tube rolling in such a circuit not necessarily applicable to everyone's situation.

Exactly. I questioned this very thing. How can you just hot swap completely different output tubes and expect them to all be working at their optimal voltages and bias currents? This alone will create significantly different sound characteristics that has nothing to do with the specific tube type. I suspect that what the GG guys are raving about with regard to the 242 tubes is nothing more than the circuit is, either on purpose or accidentally, best optimized for that tube. It is one thing to roll different makes of the same tube type but quite another to change the tube type altogether. Being "compatible with" and "optimized for" are two totally different things.

It is the same with the 6N30 and 6N6 Russian triodes. You can easily swap a 6N6 in place of a 6N30 (the other way around though might not work due to heater current draw being higher for the 6N30) and they are pretty electrically similar but not exactly the same. Often the 6N6 sounds better, smoother and a bit richer, but this might simply be that it is not optimized in a circuit designed for a 6N30...or it could be a characteristic of the tube but until you optimize the circuit for that tube you wouldn't really know.

I have been playing a lot with bias on an Aries Cerat Diana Integrated amplifier. You can adjust the bias on all three stages: input, driver and output. It makes rather significant changes to the overall sound that I can see someone perhaps preferring a higher or lower bias for varios reasons. I personally, after much fiddling, went back to the factory recommended settings as the best balanced overall (probably they are where the tubes are most linear anyway).

In that sense, I could see how a Lampizator Golden Atlantic, which is fixed in its output tube choice, could sound better than a Golden Gate with tubes that are far from their optimal set points.
 

bonzo75

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Exactly. I questioned this very thing. How can you just hot swap completely different output tubes and expect them to all be working at their optimal voltages and bias currents? This alone will create significantly different sound characteristics that has nothing to do with the specific tube type. I suspect that what the GG guys are raving about with regard to the 242 tubes is nothing more than the circuit is, either on purpose or accidentally, best optimized for that tube. It is one thing to roll different makes of the same tube type but quite another to change the tube type altogether. Being "compatible with" and "optimized for" are two totally different things.

It is the same with the 6N30 and 6N6 Russian triodes. You can easily swap a 6N6 in place of a 6N30 (the other way around though might not work due to heater current draw being higher for the 6N30) and they are pretty electrically similar but not exactly the same. Often the 6N6 sounds better, smoother and a bit richer, but this might simply be that it is not optimized in a circuit designed for a 6N30...or it could be a characteristic of the tube but until you optimize the circuit for that tube you wouldn't really know.

I have been playing a lot with bias on an Aries Cerat Diana Integrated amplifier. You can adjust the bias on all three stages: input, driver and output. It makes rather significant changes to the overall sound that I can see someone perhaps preferring a higher or lower bias for varios reasons. I personally, after much fiddling, went back to the factory recommended settings as the best balanced overall (probably they are where the tubes are most linear anyway).

In that sense, I could see how a Lampizator Golden Atlantic, which is fixed in its output tube choice, could sound better than a Golden Gate with tubes that are far from their optimal set points.

Not sure why someone who has a GG will have tubes far from their optimal set points.

That is like someone with a Scintilla purposefully buying a 3w SET to do such a thing. Why would anyone do that? Sure, it takes time to optimize, but no one keeps a less sounding tube. It is quite apparent in some systems some tubes do not sound good, and in that case people do not use them

You are right, the ones raving about 242 is best optimized for that tube, but the point is that a Lampi GG in a system best optimized for 242 sounds much better than a Lampi GG optimized for another tube, though it sounds damn good with the special EML 45s and the KR PX25s too. We have heard many different optimized Lampis in different systems with multiple tubes
 
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morricab

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Not sure why someone who has a GG will have tubes far from their optimal set points.

That is like someone with a Scintilla purposefully buying a 3w SET to do such a thing. Why would anyone do that? Sure, it takes time to optimize, but no one keeps a less sounding tube. It is quite apparent in some systems some tubes do not sound good, and in that case people do not use them

You are right, the ones raving about 242 is best optimized for that tube, but the point is that a Lampi GG in a system best optimized for 242 sounds much better than a Lampi GG optimized for another tube, though it sounds damn good with the special EML 45s and the KR PX25s too. We have heard many different optimized Lampis in different systems with multiple tubes

I think you are missing the point. It is not about the "system" it is about how the Lampi is performing with tubes that are not optimally biased because the voltage/current in the Lampi was set for a different tube type. The Lampi has to be set up so that the anode voltage and bias current are optimal for only one tube type. Every other "similar" tube will be only at best approximately correct.

When you design a circuit for a tube you have to select an anode voltage and bias current that puts you onto a particular operating point for the tube. How you set this affects the linearity and types and amounts of distortion products generated as well as the output impedance...therefore it can change the sound by a significant amount. Now, if you set up the GG originally for a 101D output tube this does not mean that those voltages and bias currents are still correct for a 45 output tube or a 300B output tube or a 2A3 output tube or a KR 242 output tube. They all have a different optimal voltage and bias point. It is probably just dumb luck that the 242 sounds best (at least to you) because it just so happens that the voltage and bias settings work well for that tube TYPE. Unless, as you have suggested above, you are deliberately trying to get a specific "flavor" from the DAC to compensate for other perceived deficiencies in a system.

Kassandra allows for tuning like this but with only one tube, the E280F. The bias is manually adjustable and this affects the distortion pattern and amount that the tube is generating. The recommended setting is the one for maximum linearity but one can tailor if one so desires. With Lampizator you are doing something similar by swapping out tube types that is giving a much less controlled and 2-layered (both tube type change and operating parameter change) harmonic distortion pattern and amount change.

It does not mean that other tubes will work worse with the GG if one was to then change the operating parameters to what is optimal for each given output tube, which is what tube amp designers are ostensibly doing. Perhaps a fully optimized 45 or 300B would actually sound better than the 242...perhaps not.
 

bonzo75

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There are too many assumptions and guesses in your post.

The same GG, if I take it around, will sound good with one tube in one system and with another in another system.

The 242 is the most difficult of tubes to keep consistent, and needs adjusting. The others do not. Mine is not specifically adjusted for special 45s or for PX25, but can very good with both in different systems.

Same applies to other GGs and big 7s which could have a completely different setting from mine.

It sounds best when the 242 voltage and bias settings match the rest of the electronics. That's all. It is the most neutral, lowest noise, linear, transparent tube with loads of detail, dynamics, decay, and ability to see every musical note much more than the others. Only when it works. Otherwise it sounds distorted, or hard and forward, at times crude.

Either way, the special 45s and PX25 work great. If I had a long term set up, I would ask Lukasz to tune the Lampi for the 242 to match my electronics.

300b has always sounded boring, though the Ayon 32b sounded great but would need optimization.
 
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morricab

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There are too many assumptions and guesses in your post.

The same GG, if I take it around, will sound good with one tube in one system and with another in another system.

The 242 is the most difficult of tubes to keep consistent, and needs adjusting. The others do not. Mine is not specifically adjusted for special 45s or for PX25, but can very good with both in different systems.

Same applies to other GGs and big 7s which could have a completely different setting from mine.

It sounds best when the 242 voltage and bias settings match the rest of the electronics. That's all. It is the most neutral, lowest noise, linear, transparent tube with loads of detail, dynamics, decay, and ability to see every musical note much more than the others. Only when it works. Otherwise it sounds distorted, or hard and forward, at times crude.

Either way, the special 45s and PX25 work great. If I had a long term set up, I would ask Lukasz to tune the Lampi for the 242 to match my electronics.

300b has always sounded boring, though the Ayon 32b sounded great but would need optimization.


There are no assumptions or guesses in my post. It is a fact that the GG is designed for one anode voltage and bias voltage...unless you are telling me they are user adjustable? This means that it is optimized for ONE tube type...not 5 or 6.

The fact (your fact at least) that you go to different systems and it seems to sound better with a different tube is only you tailoring the "flavor" of the sound to compensate the system by changing the tubes that will then be at non-optimal settings and probably creating more and more varied distortion than if the DAC voltage/current was optimized for that tube. If you could optimize each tube for anode voltage and bias then I would expect the differences between tube types to be less pronounced.

What do you mean when the 242 voltage and bias settings match the rest of the electronics? Can you manually adjust these things in the GG? I thought you could not. Otherwise, what you are saying makes no sense. I think you mean to say that the distortion pattern and amount from this tube works synergistically with some systems and with others not...is that a more correct statement?

Lukasz cannot tune your Lampi to match your electronics until you have some :). Even then, he would have to come to you and your system to do so. It could not be done in isolation other than to set the anode voltage and bias point for the tube to be most linear or what usually works best from his experience.

I would argue that the 300B may be far off the right settings if the GG was originally for a 45 or 101D tube. It will likely be underbiased significantly then and/or anode voltage way off. That could easily account for it always sounding "not right".


A 32B is even further away from a 45 style tube. In amps, a 32b is running close to 90mA bias whereas a 45 will be a lot less. If you run a 32B at low bias I am not sure how that would sound. Also, the anode voltage is normally a lot higher for a 32B. Now in a preamp setting, which is essentially what we are discussing, those settings might be a lot closer together for the two tube types than they would be for power amps.
 
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Legolas

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Love this, isn't this 'supposed' to be about the C1 DAC.

My thoughts on this subject is, the GG can be customised by Lukatz at the factory end to then use different tubes outside of the 101 and 45s. Is that correct? This is a good thing IMO as it is a customisation service not usually open to other products i.e. different tube types. However, unless it is controlled i.e. the buyer of the DAC knows for sure it is what he wants, then it opens up a nightmare of variables and near misses.

The designer of the DAC should IMO design it as supplied to take the maximum performance of any given tube. If the 242 is a better sounding tube potentially in that DAC, it maybe should have an official GG variant pre-set to go. Then the tuning of the DAC is accomplished at the factory under controlled situations and access to lab gear to read the data as well as listening sessions.

Otherwise we are heading to a DIY area where we take over the development of the finished product and water down the original designers work. I believe the 242 has a much bigger output v 101s? That can cause issues, even damage to a pre-amplifier upstream, and as morricab righty pointed out, there is output impedance to take into account as well that massively affects the ability to drive the next stage in a linear fashion. We all know how a passive pre can sound if fed by a higher impedance source, it sounds thin and looses bass and impact as well as other things. Linearity is out the window. This is an example, but you get my drift. And also getting a 10v line out may not suit most pre-amplifiers TBH as on RCA they are expecting 2v.

So to recap, if I already Ioved the sound of a 242 tube already, I would pre-order a GG set up for that tube. I wouldn't try and get it to work if it was set for 101s.
 

bonzo75

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HI that's correct. Normallly a new user would not know, in which case he is welcome to play around with tube rolling and enjoy the fun as we did before settling. Like analog, with lesser permutations and combinations. But you can essentially settle on the first cart you buy or play around with carts to match you arm and phono. Btw, as posted on another thread, it has happened that tubes with bigger output are not necessarily the better sounding ones, this correlation exists with the 242. That aside, 242 is used in Allnic 5000, and an old tube veteran (non-Lampi), told me it is his favorite tube. So it is much more than gain alone.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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HI that's correct. Normallly a new user would not know, in which case he is welcome to play around with tube rolling and enjoy the fun as we did before settling. Like analog, with lesser permutations and combinations. But you can essentially settle on the first cart you buy or play around with carts to match you arm and phono. Btw, as posted on another thread, it has happened that tubes with bigger output are not necessarily the better sounding ones, this correlation exists with the 242. That aside, 242 is used in Allnic 5000, and an old tube veteran (non-Lampi), told me it is his favorite tube. So it is much more than gain alone.

but the KR242 used in the Allnic is the original one with a different pin configuration. it requires an adapter to use in a 300b socket. I know because I bought a NOS set of KR242's for my GG but could not use it until I acquired the adapters. then it had too much gain.

later I got a set of the 'Lampi' version when my gain was changed in my upgrades......which I sold with my GG. still have the NOS ones. they don't seem to work in my Select II either.
 

bonzo75

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but the KR242 used in the Allnic is the original one with a different pin configuration. it requires an adapter to use in a 300b socket. I know because I bought a NOS set of KR242's for my GG but could not use it until I acquired the adapters. then it had too much gain.

later I got a set of the 'Lampi' version when my gain was changed in my upgrades......which I sold with my GG. still have the NOS ones. they don't seem to work in my Select II either.

Was there any SQ difference between NOS and the KR?
 
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MadFloyd

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Ha ha, this is really a Lampi tube rolling thread.
 

christoph

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Ha ha, this is really a Lampi tube rolling thread.
Your're a little late to the party ;)
The last posting in this thread before yours is from August, 2017 :eek:
Or are you catching up?
 

MadFloyd

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Your're a little late to the party ;)
The last posting in this thread before yours is from August, 2017 :eek:
Or are you catching up?

I'm very late lol. I was doing some research on DACs and was happy to find this thread ... until I wasn't. I couldn't resist posting. I knew somebody would call me out for reviving it but you never know, maybe someone would actually add something useful (or relevant).
 

christoph

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I'm very late lol. I was doing some research on DACs and was happy to find this thread ... until I wasn't. I couldn't resist posting. I knew somebody would call me out for reviving it but you never know, maybe someone would actually add something useful (or relevant).
The OP asked specifically about other top DACs ;)
 

MadFloyd

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The OP asked specifically about other top DACs ;)
He asked for comparison between CH and other top DACs. Do you see any comparisons in this thread?
 

christoph

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He asked for comparison between CH and other top DACs. Do you see any comparisons in this thread?
At least there were indirect comparisons
 

plasmod3

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it will be interesting to know how the c1 performs against other dacs. Not just the stock c1 ie but the c1 mono with a mono x1 power supply as well:) i always wondered lol the 6 boxes look nice but could we achieve the same in just 1 box for eg. the ch system is beautiful, love it - dont get me wrong here but there are so many boxes....and if you go the preamp you end up with another 4 boxes - either l1 mono or l10 mono . will be nice to simplify:)
 

Lagonda

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it will be interesting to know how the c1 performs against other dacs. Not just the stock c1 ie but the c1 mono with a mono x1 power supply as well:) i always wondered lol the 6 boxes look nice but could we achieve the same in just 1 box for eg. the ch system is beautiful, love it - dont get me wrong here but there are so many boxes....and if you go the preamp you end up with another 4 boxes - either l1 mono or l10 mono . will be nice to simplify:)
How do you even place a 6 box dac ? Special rack ? And 4 more for preamp ? I have enough trouble finding shelf room for a 3 box phono.:)
 
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plasmod3

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Lol lagonda, you got my thoughts exactly price vs function in a way. So much easier selling 6 boxes for x than 1 box for the same amount packaged as a natural upgrade pathway. For me going down that path meant I had to upsize the happy meal, which means.... You got it! A larger rack. I have a yg rack with 8 shelves on it but not enough for another 4 boxes lol
 

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spiritofmusic

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Maybe the brand appeals to those well-heeled guys who love collecting dozens and dozens of pairs of designer trainers...all displayed neatly in their presentation boxes.
 

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