Attention Bruce, or other Mastering/Recording Pros: EMI "SACDS".

[Andre Marc]

I would appreciate your thoughts on the new EMI classical "SACDs" that are going for
between $25 and $50, depending on title.

I put SACD in quotes, because, as I correctly read last year, these are archived from the original
analog tape in 24/96 PCM, then "restored", then ultimately converted to DSD.

From the October Stereophile:

Abbey Road Engineer quoted verbatim:

"..We've chosen the PCM domain. We did it at 96Khz/24 bits, clearly because it is almost impossible
for us to remaster and our remastering process in the DSD format. We can only work in the PCM format.
So we produce a finished, remastered 96khz/24 bit file, and the that gets transferred into DSD format to
author the SACD. Some people will say that that's pointless, that's not true SACD. Well I'm not going to argue.
It's the way we do it, and we do it for valid reasons."

For the record, I think it IS pointless. Why not offer 96/24 downloads, or DVD's with the files, or hell, DVD-As?

 

[LL21]

I would appreciate your thoughts on the new EMI classical "SACDs" that are going for
between $25 and $50, depending on title.

I put SACD in quotes, because, as I correctly read last year, these are archived from the original
analog tape in 24/96 PCM, then "restored", then ultimately converted to DSD.

From the October Stereophile:

Abbey Road Engineer quoted verbatim:

"..We've chosen the PCM domain. We did it at 96Khz/24 bits, clearly because it is almost impossible
for us to remaster and our remastering process in the DSD format. We can only work in the PCM format.
So we produce a finished, remastered 96khz/24 bit file, and the that gets transferred into DSD format to
author the SACD. Some people will say that that's pointless, that's not true SACD. Well I'm not going to argue.
It's the way we do it, and we do it for valid reasons.

For the record, I think it IS pointless. Why not offer 96/24 downloads, or DVD's with the files, or hell, DVD-As?

Andre

My two cents:

- how many people can play DVD-As? or know about them? i think product awareness is greater with SACD...better marketability maybe?
- most SACDs are hybrids...which means they can be used in old CD players..better marketability.
- Those who do focus on 16/44 will still go for the sacd remasters if they have truly been remastered...because in some cases, the CD layer is often also remastered and better than the 20-yr old CD from the late '80s

so in the end it is in a final format that is more marketable but still 'hi-res' and thus capable of commanding a premium price over old cd.

 

[Bruce B]

This was discussed on THIS thread and I made my comments there.... disgusting!!

We had talked about it last month. I think it's a crock of sh*t....

 

[Andre Marc]

Andre

My two cents:

- how many people can play DVD-As? or know about them? i think product awareness is greater with SACD...better marketability maybe?
- most SACDs are hybrids...which means they can be used in old CD players..better marketability.
- Those who do focus on 16/44 will still go for the sacd remasters if they have truly been remastered...because in some cases, the CD layer is often also remastered and better than the 20-yr old CD from the late '80s

so in the end it is in a final format that is more marketable but still 'hi-res' and thus capable of commanding a premium price over old cd.

-How many people can play DVD-As?
Many. And if not, they can be ripped to your hard drive as easily as a CD. I have done it many times.

-Hybrids?
Audiophiles, and that is who this is marketed to, do not pay $27 for Redbook CD layers. They want the DSD layer.

The main point is that if they plan on delivering the best sounding product, in its purest form, why all the conversions back and forth?

As you say..MARKETABILITY! Using the SACD moniker to sell something. As Bruce says, disgusting.

 

[rbbert]

It should be noted that these are all at HDTracks in 24/96 PCM for the usual price of $17.98 (I'd wait for one of their frequent sales), thus obviating the PCM > DSD objection. The ones I have (Beethoven and Brahms concertos) sound pretty good too.

If you check prices for the SACD's at Amazon, you'll see that most sell for well under $20 if you'd rather go that way.

 

[ted_b]

Bruce,
I assume the HDtracks EMI's are native sample rates (i.e weren't transferred from DSD). Otherwise we'd have pcm-dsd-pcm, the worst of all hirez worlds.

 

[Andre Marc]

It should be noted that these are all at HDTracks in 24/96 PCM for the usual price of $17.98 (I'd wait for one of their frequent sales), thus obviating the PCM > DSD objection. The ones I have (Beethoven and Brahms concertos) sound pretty good too.

If you check prices for the SACD's at Amazon, you'll see that most sell for well under $20 if you'd rather go that way.

There was absolutely no mention of the HDTracks downloads in the article...unless I missed it. That would be bizarre, since there is a full page ad for HDTracks a few pages away.

And how do we know if these are converted BACK again from DSD to PCM?

I CAN see one definite purpose of the SACDs..multichannel. Since many were remixed from the original multitracks.

 

[Andre Marc]

Bruce,
I assume the HDtracks EMI's are native sample rates (i.e weren't transferred from DSD). Otherwise we'd have pcm-dsd-pcm, the worst of all hirez worlds.

Precisely. But how do we know?

 

[ted_b]

Precisely. But how do we know?

The HDtracks "liner notes" on their website kind of lead to the native PCM assumption, but that's all it is, an assumption. As we all know, The Chesky brothers would do well to improve their provenance reporting, but this is more an issue of no-data-coming-from-the-labels.

And by the way, multichannel content can be delivered via BluRay, DVD-A or even DVD-V (somewhat lossy) but even multichannel PCM download (FLAC or wav, for example) is not the end of the world. So much care is supposedly being taken, so much marketing of the "original masters" then ruining the whole concept with an unnecessary conversion....wow.

 

[rbbert]

All the EMI's are stereo only. The HDTracks frequency spectrum looks like native PCM.

 

[Andre Marc]

The HDtracks "liner notes" on their website kind of lead to the native PCM assumption, but that's all it is, an assumption. As we all know, The Chesky brothers would do well to improve their provenance reporting, but this is more an issue of no-data-coming-from-the-labels.

And by the way, multichannel content can be delivered via BluRay, DVD-A or even DVD-V (somewhat lossy) but even multichannel PCM download (FLAC or wav, for example) is not the end of the world. So much care is supposedly being taken, so much marketing of the "original masters" then ruining the whole concept with an unnecessary conversion....wow.

You know the "we only know what the labels tell us" game is getting old. Stereophile was able to get full access to the remastering team. It CAN"T be that difficult to send an email or pick up the phone
ask a simple question. PCM masters or SACD down conversions? It is not complicated.

 

[ted_b]

All the EMI's are stereo only. The HDTracks frequency spectrum looks like native PCM.

Yes, I was really only speaking rhetorically regarding multichannel; however, the insult-to-injury here is that EMI has loads of these classical recordings in original quad recordings, which would simply need some clean up and an analog-to-DSD conversion in Grimm/Sonoma, etc. Argh!

When you really think about it, the "native" PCM EMI's are hardly that...analog-to-pcm-back-to-analog (Cedar noise removal)-then-pcm again! Argh again!! Oh well, a step better than the SACD's I guess.

 

[rbbert]

I don't think the noise removal was the most important processing performed, either in magnitude or in sonically important areas.