Any hopes for network audio in highend system?

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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Did you use NAS through USB/Firewire/eSATA? From what I see, all people using NAS I know use it with ethernet port not USB/Firewire/eSATA/etc. And I said network audio not streaming so please don't make a confusion here. For those who believe network audio is all good and don't need such things like memory playback/low latency thingy/etc. Let's try counting simple math and see what we get here.

Whew! I was jonesin' bad for some science stuff. Thanks.

Tim
 

Windows X

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Feb 28, 2011
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Network audio
data runs through -> network storage (NAS/Server/DNLA storage/etc.) + OS in NAS + network layer + physical data transmission through ethernet + another network layer + another OS in server (5 +)

Fixed media audio
data runs through -> media storage (optical media/SSD/hard disk/etc.) + physical data transmission through ethernet + OS in server (2 +)

This is pure IT science. Why didn't you quote this?
 

Vincent Kars

WBF Technical Expert: Computer Audio
Jul 1, 2010
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Did you use NAS through USB/Firewire/eSATA? From what I see, all people using NAS I know use it with ethernet port not USB/Firewire/eSATA/etc.

Small wonder. You can't get a NAS to work over USB or Firewire or eSATA as a NAS= Networked Attached Storage so yep, Ethernet is the only protocol that works.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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This is pure IT science. Why didn't you quote this?

A) about as interesting as a technical explanation of how water flows through two different domestic plumbing systems, with no scientific explanation of why it supposedly tastes different.
B) not funny

Tim
 

Windows X

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Feb 28, 2011
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Sounds like you think pouring drinking water from water dispenser machine to glass being as clean as transporting from one city to another to me. Not knowing chance of corrosion and contamination just like transporting data being degraded with induced jitter from more transporting chains and longer path. I wonder if you have highend CD transport to compare with highend nas system?
 

Brucemck2

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May 10, 2010
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I've tried (i) files stored on local SSD, (ii) files stored on an attached USB drive with and without a separate high end power supply, and (iii) files stored on a Synology NAS accessed via Ethernet. All were identical flac files played by the identical J River player through the identical output chain. In my experience there were no sonic differences. (And as an aside, I've written more than my share of assembly and machine language over the years, so I'm not oblivious to the differences in the end to end stacks.)
 

Vincent Kars

WBF Technical Expert: Computer Audio
Jul 1, 2010
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Sounds plausible to me.

You pull the same bits from different types of storage.
It are the same bits, that’s the stronghold of a computer, bits are not storage dependent.

Timing sec is not the issue as all are buffered.

The only thing left is the noise generated by the specific interface.
If we assume that they differ on this aspect and if we assume this pollution creeps into the DAC and hence affect sound quality we might have a possible explanation for possible differences.
If this is the case I’m afraid we talk about a badly designed DAC.

I have a likewise experience.
If I pull the audio from the internal HD, external USB HD or a NAS I don’t hear any difference at all.
 

Windows X

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Feb 28, 2011
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www.fidelizer-audio.com
I've tried (i) files stored on local SSD, (ii) files stored on an attached USB drive with and without a separate high end power supply, and (iii) files stored on a Synology NAS accessed via Ethernet. All were identical flac files played by the identical J River player through the identical output chain. In my experience there were no sonic differences. (And as an aside, I've written more than my share of assembly and machine language over the years, so I'm not oblivious to the differences in the end to end stacks.)

Thanks for sharing your feedback. To validate your provided information being more useful, I'd like to ask few questions below.

How did you configure J River to play with each one especially playback engine part?
What device do you use with it?
Do you have any reference CD transport to compare with?

Thank you
 

Windows X

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Feb 28, 2011
138
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935
www.fidelizer-audio.com
Sounds plausible to me.

You pull the same bits from different types of storage.
It are the same bits, that’s the stronghold of a computer, bits are not storage dependent.

Timing sec is not the issue as all are buffered.

The only thing left is the noise generated by the specific interface.
If we assume that they differ on this aspect and if we assume this pollution creeps into the DAC and hence affect sound quality we might have a possible explanation for possible differences.
If this is the case I’m afraid we talk about a badly designed DAC.

I have a likewise experience.
If I pull the audio from the internal HD, external USB HD or a NAS I don’t hear any difference at all.

This may sound like an off-topic but please hear me out. Could you try Fidelizer and tell me if it could make any difference with your USB and NAS setup?
 

Brucemck2

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May 10, 2010
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How did you configure J River to play with each one especially playback engine part?
What device do you use with it?
Do you have any reference CD transport to compare with

J River 17 and 18 running under Windows 8 (Core Audio Technology unit) is configured to provide bit perfect output via WASAPI. No PEQ, no volume leveling, no clipping protection, etc. Drivers are provided by Empirical Audio

That Core Audio Technology unit feeds an Empirical Audio OffRamp (USB to AES converter) with a custom outboard power supply. That feeds the digital input section of the Trinnov section of an ADA Reference preamp

I replaced my prior Meridian 800 series transport with the J River + Empirical Audio chain after listening confirmed that the latter had much better sonics. I've also tested my setup against a heavily modified Oppo 93 that I use for BluRay playback.
 

Windows X

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2011
138
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www.fidelizer-audio.com
J River 17 and 18 running under Windows 8 (Core Audio Technology unit) is configured to provide bit perfect output via WASAPI. No PEQ, no volume leveling, no clipping protection, etc. Drivers are provided by Empirical Audio

That Core Audio Technology unit feeds an Empirical Audio OffRamp (USB to AES converter) with a custom outboard power supply. That feeds the digital input section of the Trinnov section of an ADA Reference preamp

I replaced my prior Meridian 800 series transport with the J River + Empirical Audio chain after listening confirmed that the latter had much better sonics. I've also tested my setup against a heavily modified Oppo 93 that I use for BluRay playback.

I see. So J River + Emperical wins you over Meridian 800 series transport in your system. Not so surprising as mine also won my friend's Meridian 800 series. I hope you could get to try try ones using Esoteric or Pro2 transport some days for good experiences.

Does it still hijacks the home page?

Besides if I want to optimize I turn to the BlackViper

1. It doesn't hijack if you uncheck it before running.
2. Fidelizer isn't just services disabler. You should read in http://www.windowsxlive.net/fidelizer/. It has some unique features that you won't find it elsewhere.
 

Brucemck2

Member Sponsor
May 10, 2010
426
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I see. So J River + Emperical wins you over Meridian 800 series transport in your system. Not so surprising as mine also won my friend's Meridian 800 series. I hope you could get to try try ones using Esoteric or Pro2 transport some days for good experiences.

I would not go back to a "transport only" device without a USB or NAS input because I would not forgo the convenience of having my entire library available via an iPad.

I would not expect many transports to markedly beat a properly fed Empirical Audio unit because those units deliver an ultra low jitter signal. (And, at relatively low cost EA offers higher performance units as they figure out how to engineer them.) That being said, I am currently considering top of the line Aurender, MSB, and dCS units.
 

Windows X

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2011
138
51
935
www.fidelizer-audio.com
I would not go back to a "transport only" device without a USB or NAS input because I would not forgo the convenience of having my entire library available via an iPad.

I would not expect many transports to markedly beat a properly fed Empirical Audio unit because those units deliver an ultra low jitter signal. (And, at relatively low cost EA offers higher performance units as they figure out how to engineer them.) That being said, I am currently considering top of the line Aurender, MSB, and dCS units.

I recommend you getting transport/dac combo with USB input for DAC like Esoteric P-02/D-02, Emm Labs TSDX/DAC2X, or dCS Paganini set if not better. I'd recommend buying masterclock+Rubidium for Esoteric/dCS set as well. They're indispensable once you get to know them. if you really won't go for separated disc transport, Emm Labs XDS1 V2 is good choice with Esoteric drive and XMOS USB.

I got accustomed to those kinds of gears so it's quite a difficult situation to me. In my opinion, you may need to raise the bar in some situations to see the gap in between. USB VS ethernet won't be hard to tell apart after experiencing something significantly better.
 
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