Any hopes for network audio in highend system?

[Windows X]

I thought USB is struggling hard just to be able to play finely in highend audio system but it took far worse for network ones. I heard a few from popular brands none sounds alive. Dull and lifeless and not much of difference from listening to internet radio performance.

Forgive me if it sounds offensive but that's honestly what I and many people I know feel when experience ones. Let me list some from what I can remember here.

"I got a call from my friend saying this ones is no good despite being very expensive."

"It sounds normal. Just like car audio."

"Could you recommend any good software because ones from company sounding so bad." I asked him to try connecting storage directly to player through USB mass storage connection and that's how he plays the music.

"This ones has very good sound network audio player.....what? Network is used only for controlling?"

"I auditioned some cool system using highend NAS, highend ethernet cables, and highend server grade router. When I asked him to play my songs from SSD portable drive with some <$10 USB cable, its performance silenced the owner. We didn't talk much and went out for dinner."

Those are from my friends. Some called me, some texted me and some are my friend's story with me. I thought USB Audio already have a hard time making good music playback but may not be as hard as network audio.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Not my experience but, then again, you have not specified anything. I use network file/data transfer but USB for connection to my DACs. What are these: "highend NAS, highend ethernet cables, and highend server grade router?"

 

[Windows X]

I guess friends' direct experiences wouldn't hurt so I'll say some for storage comparison. This isn't about USB Audio at all just to be sure.

Ayon S5: comparing streaming media from nas with usb mass storage from portable hard drive. This is storage comparison and USB portable drive is a win against NAS. it became my friend's reference over his NAS.

Weiss MAN301: one Weiss dealers told me highend nas system is way better than firewire/usb. One weiss user told me he prefers using usb/firewire storage over nas and look for decent docking station to connect.

If Toslink is is the least highend for linking most digital transport/dac (Not that optical sucks as I'm using ST link and don't group it with toslink but hardly find good ones), nas could be the least highend for linking most client/storage. You can buy expensive toslink cable but it can easily be overpowered by industrial aes/ebu cable or coaxial ones. Just like a highend nas could easily be topped with good quality of e-sata/usb/firewire storage.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I don't buy your logic but I trust my experience.

 

[Windows X]

It's science not logic. You have freedom to trust in what you prefer. Have you ever compared between ethernet and usb/firewire for data storage?

 

[edorr]

It's science not logic. You have freedom to trust in what you prefer. Have you ever compared between ethernet and usb/firewire for data storage?

I always believed nas was the ticket based on expert opinion / conventional wisdom. Then I once did some reconfiguration and could not get nas to,work so I switched to USB storage. When I switched back to nas much to my surprise I found I took a step back in sound quality, so now I play form USB storage. Entirely possible I am just deluding myself, which is the beauty of this hobby.

 

[BlueFox]

There have been a few reports from people saying they can hear a difference between Ethernet cables. If true then that implies the network used with the NAS can degrade the sound. Obviously, a direct attached USB drive will not have this issue.

 

[katylied]

I always believed nas was the ticket based on expert opinion / conventional wisdom. Then I once did some reconfiguration and could not get nas to,work so I switched to USB storage. When I switched back to nas much to my surprise I found I took a step back in sound quality, so now I play form USB storage. Entirely possible I am just deluding myself, which is the beauty of this hobby.

Can I ask you more details about your system at the time of your experiment? My experience is exactly the opposite ......

 

[Windows X]

How NAS works
storage -> nas OS -> network sender -> physical data transport -> network receiver -> server OS -> audio processing

How USB mass storage works
storage -> physical transport -> server OS -> audio processing

How USB audio works
storage -> data transport (depends on your medium) -> server OS -> digital audio transport -> audio processing -> DAC

In sound/data engineering's point of view, nas will never be better than usb mass storage. USB audio has server/audio processing isolation so it can be improved further with better server/USB interface replaced. However, audiophiles tend to find favorite flavors for their qualities so some can perceive differently.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

It's science not logic. You have freedom to trust in what you prefer. Have you ever compared between ethernet and usb/firewire for data storage?

Yup. Frequently.

 

[edorr]

Can I ask you more details about your system at the time of your experiment? My experience is exactly the opposite ......

I don't recall the details. I was making some configuration changes and could not get access to my NAS (Synology), so I switched to USB storage (temporarily I thought, expecting NAS to be superior). Much to my surprise I believe SQ took a step back when I switched back to NAS, so I have been using USB storage ever since. It is entirely conceivable I cannot reproduce this result and I have been deluding myself all along. There is a lot of voodoo / kool aid drinking / placebo popping / pseudo science going on in audio, in particular when it comes to the digital signal path.

At the time I was probably using a CAPS 2.0 into Offramp 5 with battery into Trinnov Processor into PS Audio Perfectwave II, into tube pre, class A monos into Avalon Eidolons, probably using 2x JL113 subs. I have changed so much gear over the last few years, I am not 100% sure.

 

[katylied]

Edorr, thanks for your reply. I was mostly interested in the IT infrastructure and player/streamer.

 

[Bruce B]

I've never heard any difference in ethernet cables, either streaming or data storage.

 

[Vincent Kars]

I've never heard any difference in ethernet cables, either streaming or data storage.

That is the well-known problem with the pro’s.
They listen day and night to the sound so they don’t hear differences which are not there

 

[Vincent Kars]

I wonder where we are talking about.
In my book streaming is having a server and a renderer communicating over the network using a typical streaming audio protocol like e.g. DLNA, AirPlay.

In this case the question is what is the server sending?
Some nicely down sample MP3 to preserve network bandwidth?
Has anybody checked what is actually received by the renderer?

Another option, but this is not streaming but simply using a file protocol: exactly the same audio files are stored on e.g. a NAS and pulled from the NAS using the file protocol versus pulling the file from an external USB HD.
In this scenario the files are exactly the same but the protocols and the interfaces differ.

The funny thing is there is a lot of talk about DAP, the Dedicated Audio PC.
This is most of the time a slimmed down PC, less is more (more or less)
Preferably fan less, SSD, etc. so no moving parts.
Software wise a minimal amount of processes.

The ultimate consequence, a low power processor, no storage, really the minimal PC.
Guess we have reinvented the streamer.

 

[edorr]

That is the well-known problem with the pro’s.
They listen day and night to the sound so they don’t hear differences which are not there

It takes the serious audio hobbyist years of practising, going through a lot of expensive gears and reading many reviews to develop this skill (i.e. hearing differences that are not there). I'm still working on it, but getting better at it all the time. I found hanging around on forums and listening to fellow audiophiles and manufacturers immensely helpful to hone the skill.

 

[edorr]

I wonder where we are talking about.
In my book streaming is having a server and a renderer communicating over the network using a typical streaming audio protocol like e.g. DLNA, AirPlay.

Same book here. USB based storage versus NAS based storage has nothing to do with streaming.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It's science not logic. You have freedom to trust in what you prefer. Have you ever compared between ethernet and usb/firewire for data storage?

Was there some science in these 2 pages? I must have missed it.

Tim

 

[Vincent Kars]

Don’t be so impatient Tim.
There are more pages to come and the scientific evidence will pour from them.
(or are we in for one those rare objectivist-subjectivist debates on this forum...)?

 

[Windows X]

Did you use NAS through USB/Firewire/eSATA? From what I see, all people using NAS I know use it with ethernet port not USB/Firewire/eSATA/etc. And I said network audio not streaming so please don't make a confusion here. For those who believe network audio is all good and don't need such things like memory playback/low latency thingy/etc. Let's try counting simple math and see what we get here.

Network audio
data runs through -> network storage (NAS/Server/DNLA storage/etc.) + OS in NAS + network layer + physical data transmission through ethernet + another network layer + another OS in server (5 +)

Fixed media audio
data runs through -> media storage (optical media/SSD/hard disk/etc.) + physical data transmission through ethernet + OS in server (2 +)

Count the '+' and you should see why network audio has way more + to fixed media and that's why some people could perceive such difference between these two. Well, people who has network ones for main reference might not be able to perceive it until they find better reference to see the gap to measure. I own some highend Esoteric/Emm Labs models so it's easier for me to tell apart.

I can't believe we come from era of optical media needs jitter correction and these days we still have people believing data file being prone to error in highend audio. Even wav file written to cheap Princo played from built-in drive sounds way better than playing from hard disk, let alone streaming. They all should take data communication course to learn why companies keep selling optical media storage instead of flash disk with hardware lock encryption.