9” vs 12” pick up arms. The mechanics explained minus the anecdotal B.S.

[Folsom]

Because it's not a true cantilever, I don't believe the actual resonance will be the same while playing.

But what's more important and not mentioned is... are you hearing the amplitude of the resonance in an arm, or the frequency? It could very well be that subjectively people would prefer the lower resonance of the 12" until it is ten fold higher than it starts at, over the 9" arm with the higher resonance. The effects of the resonance affects everything to a degree, so I seriously ask if it can be dismissed so quickly.

To a similar affect the last bit of tracking error could be exponentially more important that many degrees proceeding it.

I'm not providing an answer, I'm merely pointing out that there are not formed conclusions except to assume amplitude > frequency and total tracking error percentage > the percentage that matters.

 

[shakti]

having tried some different tonearms, cartridges and turntables in the last years, mostly parallel, I respect Marc's point of view and explanation. But looking only to the Tonearm , not seeing the Cart and the turntable (and the tonearm base) in the same time, is just too easy.

Vibration or resonances are mechanical energy, if a part if the chain is rigid, the energy will just flow through and will arrive in the next parts of the assembly.


To run a Koetsu Cart on an Ikeda Arm or to run a colibri cart on a FR 64/66 tonearm in a proper way, the management of this energy is important. So a removable headshell is not only the mechanical interface to fit the cart, it is the first step to manage the energy. With soft wood, the energy will become damped, with Titanium the energy will flow into the tonearm and so on. Ikeda is using a material mix, so a lot of the energy is absorbed in the arm. FR 64s/66s are solid steel.
using alloy or gunmetal tonearm bases under an Ikeda 407 does not make a significant difference compared to the difference it makes with FR64s/66s.

Choosing the right Cart , Arm and drive is a complicated story and many good combinations are well known ( as SPU in 3012).

So I can imagine, that in some combinations even the 12' SAT will outperform the 9' SAT, as being rigid is just one argument in the direction of a good sound.

 

[ddk]

Choosing the right Cart , Arm and drive is a complicated story and many good combinations are well known ( as SPU in 3012)

.

Try your Colibri on the 3012-R, you'll be very, very pleased.

david

PS. Use the original SME headshell!

 

[microstrip]

(...) If the 3012R had a fixed headshell version, that is the one I would prefer. (...)

You can have it, SME manufactured a shell with the same mount as the collar bayonet connector. You would just unscrew the connector and replace it with the shell using the supplied equal screw - then you would need to replace the connector pins with cartridge lugs or perhaps replace the whole wire loom.

I saw this specific shell only once in a buy-it-now eBay auction in Japan when looking for S2R double pin shells for the 3012 R. I was so stupid that I could not figure its use immediately and just bough the double pin original SME shell. When I figured it out it was too late ...

 

[Tango]

Dave, I thought the AS2000 was a VERY limited production run, just to the guys we know about and maybe Billy the “ultimate playboy”.

Have you extended the run to a few more?

There are many more interests on the AS Marc. A few requests from Thailand alone have been made to David after they heard I am on the first batch. Thailand also took 10% of SAT originals. New one will likely be on AS too.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[rockitman]

I ask because the idea of matching cartridge compliance to tonearm effective mass alone does not quite make sense to me. Yes, I get the fact that a low compliance cart matched with a low mass arm will allow the stylus to push the the arm around (thus losing efficiency) but it doesn't seem to tell the whole story. Resonant frequencies in the arm have to play a part too, or am I way off base here.

I never spent too much time worrying about that...at least with the two primary arms I have been using...Graham Phantom 10 & 12 low to medium compliance, 3012R low compliance. Most off my carts are low compliance LOMC's. They all sound good on those two arm brands. I believe what distinguishes sound in a rather large way is resonance and how the turntable/arm/cart's individual resonance interact with one another giving you the unique sound character. While I am a proponent of passive isolation with TT's (keeping vibration away from TT), my experience with trying to control the resonance feedback loop of a TT with counteracting "active" isolation forces yielded a negative result in my case...too much of a good thing has a negative affect on the sound. It loses its natural lifelike sound to some degree. I know I didn't answer you question exactly.

 

[ddk]

I never spent too much time worrying about that...at least with the two primary arms I have been using...Graham Phantom 10 & 12 low to medium compliance, 3012R low compliance. Most off my carts are low compliance LOMC's. They all sound good on those two arm brands. I believe what distinguishes sound in a rather large way is resonance and how the turntable/arm/cart's individual resonance interact with one another giving you the unique sound character. While I am a proponent of passive isolation with TT's (keeping vibration away from TT), my experience with trying to control the resonance feedback loop of a TT with counteracting "active" isolation forces yielded a negative result in my case...too much of a good thing has a negative affect on the sound. It loses its natural lifelike sound to some degree. I know I didn't answer you question exactly.

Never bothered with any of that with the 3012-r same with the setup, it’s 1-2-3 and you’re done.
david

 

[rockitman]

Never bothered with any of that with the 3012-r same with the setup, it’s 1-2-3 and you’re done.
david

Simplicity rules in this case !

 

[Tirebiter]

I know I didn't answer you question exactly.

It helps me gain understanding as to what and why some measurements are important and how they might interact with each other. Sometimes all we know is that it works and we don't worry any more about it. That is fine but without digging further and putting ideas on the table we won't really get to the meat of the question at hand which is to say I won't get any closer to understanding what parameters make for a good, informed choice down the road. I think the exercise is also useful when things go wrong...sometime we haven't a clue why because of reliance on the fact that it worked before. So as has been said before, arm length, long or short, does not cure all ills.

That and I am obviously intrigued by the fact that an ancient SME arm has the potential to outperform many others and nobody can really answer why. It is almost like the 3012 was a happy accident. The key is there, somewhere...

Brock

 

[Lagonda]

Am I the only one dreaming about the SME 3012 RG Gold Limited Nr. 0008 - Boxed - New/Never Used at ebay and fearing it is a not a real deal?

That gold arm is absolutely beautiful ! It would match your Forsell perfectly. The seller had a few new 3012R arms in his collection, I bought a silver version from him.
Have a machine shop make you a outrigger for your Forsell or get this one https://www.ebay.de/itm/Micro-Seiki...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
I did this on my Maplenoll Signature with great result.

 

[Tirebiter]

Although I find your questions interesting your introduction needs some careful clarification. The SME3012R is well considered by those who appreciate a certain type of sound quality and system. Besides they own turntables and cartridges that match the 3012R. Naturally people who share preferences gather together and it is what is happening now in WBF. No one told us it was the best tonearm in the world.

Point taken and would add that as a newcomer here, it does not appear to me that anyone here had to be told that the 3012R was one of the best.. you figured it out. I like and appreciate that approach....

 

[Tango]

That gold arm is absolutely beautiful !

Dear Lagonda,

Your hair must be turning black. The gold stuffs are meant for Asians like me .

Best regards,
Tang

 

[ddk]

There are many more interests on the AS Marc. A few requests from Thailand alone have been made to David after they heard I am on the first batch. Thailand also took 10% of SAT originals. New one will likely be on AS too.

Kind regards,
Tang

It's a Kingdom after all and people have kingly tastes!

david

 

[rockitman]

It is almost like the 3012 was a happy accident. The key is there, somewhere...

Brock

In a sense you may be right as SME made a 3012R series 2 version with an aluminum arm tube and perhaps some other small changes. The sound quality from what I understand went backwards...

 

[ddk]

In a sense you may be right as SME made a 3012R series 2 version with an aluminum arm tube and perhaps some other small changes. The sound quality from what I understand went backwards...

Not at all the Series 1 was already a wonderful design, the triumvirate were the Ortofon, EMT 12" and the 3012, perfect designs in so many ways.

david

 

[Lagonda]

Dear Lagonda,

Your hair must be turning black. The gold stuffs are meant for Asians like me .

Best regards,
Tang

My hair is actually turning silver ! But my taste in Hifi gear is very Liberace, black and gold looks great to me. Hoping MBL will one day make a turntable to go with the rest of my gear. The Texas belt buckle sized logo on my amp is a little overkill though.
Love the looks of the AS2000 too, fantastic !

 

[rockitman]

Not at all the Series 1 was already a wonderful design, the triumvirate were the Ortofon, EMT 12" and the 3012, perfect designs in so many ways.

david

I thought you said the series 2 (aluminum) was inferior sounding to series 1 with steel arm tube ?

 

[jeff1225]

Never bothered with any of that with the 3012-r same with the setup, it’s 1-2-3 and you’re done.
david

This is one of the reasons that I love the SME 3012R. I change carts every week or so. Takes me exactly 3-5 minutes.

 

[PeterA]

This is one of the reasons that I love the SME 3012R. I change carts every week or so. Takes me exactly 3-5 minutes.

Jeffrey, that sounds pretty easy. What adjustments if any do you make when switching cartridges?

 

[Halcro]

I have always wondered this too! I totally respect the desire for easy cartridge change, but I cannot imagine how the detachable headshell is an advantage structurally or from the point of view of adding another wire junction.

If the 3012R had a fixed headshell version, that is the one I would prefer.

Since almost everyone, if not literally everyone, purchasing an AS-2000 is also asking David to install a 3012R we are going to have the opportunity for several members to report comparisons between the 3012R and current production tonearms.

I am considering a second tonearm (Schroder LT or Durand Tosca) myself.

There are so many "experts" in the world of 'audio' that the unwashed 'punters' can pick and choose which 'expert' to believe....(almost none of whom has any scientific proof to offer).
40 years ago, I started by using a Technics tonearm with detachable headshell but under pressure from the High-End Hi-Fi community (journalists)....I quickly changed to a fixed headshell Hadcock GH-228 and for the next 30 years I eschewed removable headshells.

10 years ago I re-entered the detachable headshell tonearm world and have owned nearly twenty different models of both fixed and removable headshell arms.
I have never, in that time, heard a detachable headshell tonearm sound inferior to a fixed shell because of it....
In fact....nearly all the fixed-shell tonearms I owned, have been out-performed by the removable-headshell ones until only one of my 6 tonearms has a non-removable shell (the Copperhead).

The 'expert' purist brigade once again makes its point by entering a world in which it has little expertise.....Structural Mechanics.
It posits the proposal that a 'mechanical joint' cannot be as rigid as a fixed (or no joint).....
In engineering, there are several ways of joining both alike and non-alike materials to form what is called a 'Moment Connection'.
This is a connection which essentially allows all forces (bending, shear) to be transferred without any movement or losses. In steel construction (to keep the example simple)...this can be achieved by riveting, high-tensile bolts or welding.
The bayonet and tightening-collar connection for a typical removable-headshell, effectively offers a high-quality Moment Connection.
Some tonearm manufacturers (those with real engineering credentials like Fidelity Research) actually advise that the ubiquitous rubber gasket (which accompanies every headshell) be removed to prevent any compliant coupling between arm and shell.

We are then left with the apparent 'weakness' of an additional 'electrical' connection between the headshell and arm....
This is beyond my expertise so I have essentially 'swallowed' this weakness and believed my ears
Imagine my surprise and delight recently, to find this posting by John Elison on Vinyl Asylum.....

The signal loss through a continuous strand of 33-gauge wire with connectors on each end is more than double the signal loss through one foot of 33-gauge wire and 3-feet of 26-gauge interconnect wire with a total of 6-connectors. This is very easy to determine by simply measuring the resistance of a continuous length of 33-gauge wire that is 4-feet in length against the minuscule resistance of 6 gold plated connectors added to the combined tonearm wire and interconnect wire. The maximum possible resistance of a single gold-plated connector is 0.01-ohm whereas the resistance of 4-feet of 33-gauge wire is 1.0436-ohms. The resistance of 1-foot of 33-gauge wire plus 3-feet of heavier 26-gauge interconnect wire and 6 gold plated connectors is 0.2609 + 0.12243 + 6 x 0.01 = 0.44333-ohms. Signal loss is proportional to resistance; therefore, the continuous 33-gauge wire has over twice the signal loss as the combination of wire with 6 connectors.

Signal loss is proportional to resistance only. In other words, the small voltage and current of a phono cartridge signal has no greater impact to the signal loss as would a much larger voltage and current. This is why having some formal education in electrical theory helps. It might seem like the minuscule voltage and current from a phono cartridge will be more susceptible to signal loss than higher line level voltages and currents, but that's not the case. Signal loss is proportional to resistance, only.

Best regards,
John Elison

Unless someone with higher qualifications than John is able to demonstrate the errors of his statement......I'm going with this

To rub further salt into the wounds of the 'fixed-headshell' brigade......the greatest improvements to the sounds of all my cartridges have occurred with changes to headshell material and construction.
Changes that far exceed (in many cases) those between individual cartridges themselves are readily available for ridiculously small amounts of money.
And this is something the fixed-headshell brigade will never experience......
In most cases, tonearms come with fixed headshells made of metal.
Only one of my 40 odd cartridges is mounted in a metal headshell with various wood and carbon-fibre shells sounding infinitely better

It will be interesting indeed to hear from all those truly experienced audiophiles on this Forum who have previously experienced only high-quality tonearms with fixed headshells and are now embarking on the sonic pleasures of the 3012R....