Hello, Empirical. I will echo your thoughts here with the VMPS Larger Sub. Now my ears have been spoiled. Completely different kind of lower extension experience that just completes [not compete] the listening experience.
Tom
What is it about the "jump factor" that only expensive speakers get close to "real"?
- Thread starter caesar
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Tom
Gotcha. Probably a combination of things- live, from mike thru mixer, to amps and speakers is going to sound more real than if recorded and played back, after layers of processing, additional mixing, mastering, limiting, compression, whatever additional stuff is added to get to a commercial recording. (Probably sound better than even a simple recording, unless the chain is really good and the recorder is too). Plus the efficiency, JBLs tend that way-
I've heard outdoor set ups like you describe, and they aren't contending with room acoustic boundaries, and complications that result. And, the kind of PA system you are talking about isn't terribly expensive.
Short throw cones really are more punchy and jumpy. I don't know if it is the stiffer surrounds but they do start and stop quickly. I've always found that overhang is the antithesis of jump.
A significant " jump factor " component is the enclosure's ability to permit maximal free movement of the driver diaphragm. Large transmission line enclosures have an earned reputation for a crescendo capacity -- when playing at a sound level close to the original performance -- of creating a sympathetic thoracic resonance in the listener.
The experience of listening in the near rows to a Bach organ fuge evokes a true, profound connection to Bach's genius as sub 32 hz chord structures are actually experienced in a tactile, vibration to both the chest cavity and skull manner as well, of course, as heard through the ear drum chain sensory, usual window. The SACD on Columbia with E. Power Biggs as virtuoso organist playing Bach's D major Fuge is a most wonderful recording that creates this sensory, near overload, you-are-there, delightful sensory treat with the right speakers and electronics. I just yesterday FINALLY traced the gifted creator of the TL speakers I have reveled in listening through for three whole decades. The first 1/4 century with Electrocompaniet electronics, and for five years now with Keith Herron's 3A pre and monoblock amps. I hope my e-mail to the designer/fabricator of this major " jump factor " speaker will be of interest:
Dear Mark, For thirty years I have immensely enjoyed your masterpiece, the Mark Pearson Speakers, or MPS -- "Just" a two box, transmission line SOLUTION-- your speakers that are a miracle gateway to the original performance when paired with outstanding amplification and outstanding ICs and speaker wires. For twenty five I had years I enjoyed Electrocompaniet electronics before changing to Keith Herron's inspired design 3A preamp and monoblock ampsfive years ago. My source is the Sony 5400 SACD player that earned an "A" from Absolute Sound even before the Truth, Modwright upgrade to rectifier/tube power source, improved clock and tube based amp circuits to replace the Sony, stock op-amps.
Three speaker for each stereo channel, extraordinary crossover design with Wonder Cap, capacitors and transmission line," open" enclosures that let crescendos rock your rib cage and soul with you being, right there in the first row, thrilling immediacy.
With the MPS speakers I am able to have Anna Netrebko performing the Puccini aria that is so endearing/ haunting from Merchant and Ivory's classic film, Room with a View (O mio babbino caro/ Oh my dearest father -- Deutsche Grammophon SACD 00289 474 8812 GSA titled Sempre Libera), then within moments, Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald sing They Can't Take That Away from Me (Verve SACD 314 589 598 2, titled Ella and Louis), followed by Sarah Vaughan singing " I'm Glad There Is You " (Verve SACD B0001127-06 )
All in one evening, in my home. Four of the greatest voices of the last one hundred years on incredibly engaging recordings, bringing goose bumps/tears and an understandable sense of wonder from being right there with the performers and at one with the true, timeless delightful of " live" music. I have trouble thanking you enough for the enjoyment your masterful speakers have brought me.
The experience of listening in the near rows to a Bach organ fuge evokes a true, profound connection to Bach's genius as sub 32 hz chord structures are actually experienced in a tactile, vibration to both the chest cavity and skull manner as well, of course, as heard through the ear drum chain sensory, usual window. The SACD on Columbia with E. Power Biggs as virtuoso organist playing Bach's D major Fuge is a most wonderful recording that creates this sensory, near overload, you-are-there, delightful sensory treat with the right speakers and electronics. I just yesterday FINALLY traced the gifted creator of the TL speakers I have reveled in listening through for three whole decades. The first 1/4 century with Electrocompaniet electronics, and for five years now with Keith Herron's 3A pre and monoblock amps. I hope my e-mail to the designer/fabricator of this major " jump factor " speaker will be of interest:
Dear Mark, For thirty years I have immensely enjoyed your masterpiece, the Mark Pearson Speakers, or MPS -- "Just" a two box, transmission line SOLUTION-- your speakers that are a miracle gateway to the original performance when paired with outstanding amplification and outstanding ICs and speaker wires. For twenty five I had years I enjoyed Electrocompaniet electronics before changing to Keith Herron's inspired design 3A preamp and monoblock ampsfive years ago. My source is the Sony 5400 SACD player that earned an "A" from Absolute Sound even before the Truth, Modwright upgrade to rectifier/tube power source, improved clock and tube based amp circuits to replace the Sony, stock op-amps.
Three speaker for each stereo channel, extraordinary crossover design with Wonder Cap, capacitors and transmission line," open" enclosures that let crescendos rock your rib cage and soul with you being, right there in the first row, thrilling immediacy.
With the MPS speakers I am able to have Anna Netrebko performing the Puccini aria that is so endearing/ haunting from Merchant and Ivory's classic film, Room with a View (O mio babbino caro/ Oh my dearest father -- Deutsche Grammophon SACD 00289 474 8812 GSA titled Sempre Libera), then within moments, Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald sing They Can't Take That Away from Me (Verve SACD 314 589 598 2, titled Ella and Louis), followed by Sarah Vaughan singing " I'm Glad There Is You " (Verve SACD B0001127-06 )
All in one evening, in my home. Four of the greatest voices of the last one hundred years on incredibly engaging recordings, bringing goose bumps/tears and an understandable sense of wonder from being right there with the performers and at one with the true, timeless delightful of " live" music. I have trouble thanking you enough for the enjoyment your masterful speakers have brought me.
Great post!
Another word(s) for great jump factor: Omni-directional - Fully immersive and fulfilling/realistic envelopment; from all directions and at all positions.
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You can't ask for any better vocalists,I love all of these and their artistry.
Not sure why you think the "jump factor" is right. And it certainly doesn't have to be an expensive speaker. It only needs to be a revealing speaker.
I would attest that the jump factor, though impressive and engaging to some extent, is nothing more than an electronics-induced distortion that actually takes you further away from the live performance rather than closer to it.
When is the last time you were at a live music performance (and seated at least 20 - 30 ft from the instruments) where you heard the strike of a note or a dynamic passage that caused you to jump?
Long ago, I've seen Ted Nugent, Al Stewart, KISS, ZZ Top, Rush, Bob Seger, James Taylor, Kenny Loggins, Freddie Hubbard, Dave Ramsey, and a small host of other artists. I've also been to a number of symphonies, jazz, and other concerts in large concert halls as well as in smaller more intimate venues. Never once do I recall experiencing the "jump factor".
Now I've been known to listen to certain types of music on my playback system around the 100 - 105db levels. Because of some unique things I employ, I also happen to possess the most dynamic playback system I've ever encountered and have taken great pride in my system's dynamics. It was not unusual to encounter the "jump factor" and it always seemed to be with the right dynamic note. A phenomena that is tremendously exciting and engaging and impressive to any visitor.
Nevertheless, it simply is not natural. There is a soundstage and there is an audience and usually a good distance between your ears and the artists and their instruments and/or speakers. That distance could be 50ft, 100ft, or even 200ft between you and the soundstage. Aside from an oil refinery explosion or maybe serious high-speed auto accident, there are very few sounds in life that occur 100ft away that would or should cause you to jump.
Think of it this way. If you have any experience with guns, then you know how powerful a gunshot is. If there was a .45 caliber gunshot that went off 5ft or 10ft away from you, you would jump every time you heard the gunshot.
But if the shooter was now say 50ft away, you most likely would never jump, though you may blink, whenever the gun was fired. At a 100ft. away, you probably wouldn't even blink.
So what exactly causes a playback system to generate a "jump factor"? Well, of course there has to be a certain loudness or higher decibel range because elevator or background music will never cause a jump factor. But more importantly, it is the distortions induced in a system that causes a jump factor. The very same distortions that make a piano, a percussive instrument, the most difficult instrument to reproduce, especially the upper registers.
The distortions induced in the playback system will cause a piano's upper register keys, especially when struck hard/quickly, distort a good portion of the note so that the most obvious part of the note, usually the most dynamic part, makes like a beeline to your ear. Better yet a laser beam to your ear, causing you to wince and causing ear fatigue.
So why am I confident about the Jump factor being the result of distortions?
Not long ago I took possession of a 600 wpc int. amp to replace my 200 int. amp. Until now the most powerful amp I've ever owned was a 300wpc@8ohm McCormack DNA-2 Revision A amp that also pumped out 1200 wpc@2ohms.
With my already impressive dynamics, with the 600wpc a note's initial attack was now so in-my-face (it almost didn't matter what the instrument was) that though very impressive, was so unnatural. It was as though my ears were now 6-inches from the instrument for the note's initial attack, but then my ears were planted in say the 1st row in the audience for the remainder of the note.
Even though the amp had tremendous promise from a musical perspective, this in-my-face situation was about as natural as a .45 caliber gunshot going off 10ft from my ears and it took the overall musical presentation in the opposite direction of live music. But I was jumpin'.
So I swapped out the 600 wpc int. amp with the same mtg'er's 600 wpc mono-block amps (same exact technology as the int. amp) hooked up directly to my CD player and used the CDP's passive volume attenuator.
It was a match made in heaven, as they say. The in-my-face dynamics from a note's initial attack was gone (for the most part) and back up on stage with the rest of the music and notes where they belong. And my ears were now planted well into the audience where they belong with a good 30 - 40ft distance between me and the soundstage just as it should be.
Switching to the CDP's passive volume attenuator brought additional benefits as well. A tremendous improvement in clarity where every note was that much more pristine and delicate so there was obviously a much lowered noise floor too. And because of the 600wpc amps, I still have the most dynamic system I've ever encountered, only now it is far more natural with a good natural distance between me and the soundstage.
Because of my love for dynamics, I swore long ago that I'd never switch to a passive preamp / volume attenuator but as a result, I'm now closer to the live performance than I've ever been and in a very natural sense of the word.
So what was the cause of my extreme jump factor? Several things.
1. There are things I do to my system that greatly reduces distortions (noise floor) while it improves its level of musicality, including dynamics. So there's already a "jumpstart" there.
2. A 200wpc amp wasn't enough to significantly amply the problem but I suspect the 600wpc amps greatly amplified a notes attack, especially for performances and instruments that were closely mic'd.
3. I suspect that most / all amplified gain stages induce a certain amount of distortion as most any amplifier will do.
4. I suspect with closely mic'ed dynamic music material a note's initial attack, say a kick drum or a blatt of a horn, moves or excites enough air to cause the recording mic's diaphragm to move and this movement or excursion (like a subwoofer driver) or PUFF of the diaphragm is captured in the recording. And when played back with an active or amplified gain stage and with 600wpc amps, this recorded PUFF at a note's initial attack is PUFF'ed out of the playback speakers.
Since a more revealing speaker (or component) is indiscriminate about what it reveals (music or distortions), it can be that certain speakers will amplify or make this unnatural distortion more distinct than a less revealing speaker. At mild levels the "jump factor" may be cool, but there simply is nothing natural about it.
Essentially, it took an extreme form of the electronics-induced "jump factor" and perhaps luck of the draw corrective action to realize the "jump factor's" potential cause and its cure.
I wouldn't blink if I were in a firing range but I certainly would if I were in a shopping mall even 200ft away! Yes I am familiar with guns and no I am not jumpy by nature.
LOL! We've all seen myriad examples of that; unfortunately, jump factor sonically does not (many times) intersect with jump factor in price!
Glad to see Legacy Aeris, Focus SE, Whisper (and V should be on the list) mentioned previously; they all definitely have this factor at a price
point respective to each that is much more reasonable than many speakers on the market! For me, it's dynamics, full frequency range an
high sensitivity all contributing to producing jump factor. Have owned all but V and Whisper but spending extensive time listening to those
as well, I can definitely vouch for the fact that with proper gear and cables, Legacy's offerings definitely deliver "jump factor"
lol....really?? I think yours and my definition are very different...mine is in relation to live music and yours is in relation to...well I am not too sure what.
Caesar
WOuld the MG 20.1 THe Soundlab ESL, THe Vandersteen Quattro , The Wilson Sasha, The VOn Sweikert VR5, The MArtin Logan Summit-X, The Zu Defintiion, the ... The Magnepan 3.7, The Magico Q3, The Rockport Mira, The (hesitation, list is sooo long), The MArtin Logan CLX, The Sanders ESL, And about 467 other pairs of speakers under 50K have that "Jump ' Factor .. Come On man!.. Ok you like the Wilson line of speakers, especially the upper echelon and that is OK but this is one of these threads that will NOT lead to anything that will help anyone either build a system or make an existing one better .. I could be wrong .. I doubt it .. lurking mode ON!
All you mentioned fail
I tend to agree but don't think "speed" is the culprit...linear scaling of the signal is the issue, IMO. A transducer that can truly and linearly scale the dynamic swing will have jump factor when the recording itself is not truncated. In this case the recording ( and hopefully the electronics) keep scaling up but the speaker flattens out and essentially compresses the signal...jump factor is gone or severely curtailed.
This could be dynamic (mechanical) or thermal compression or both. For planars it is usually a mechanical compression as the tensioned membrane reaches excursion limits...it just won't get to that peak like it is supposed to.
This is why horns do it more readily...perhaps even exclusively...
AgreedHorns are King when it comes to Jump. Vintage DIY isn't expensive in relative terms
Caesar
My main problem with your approach is the price tag A speaker like the Zu Essence at $5000 or the Defintion at twice that will doit to you aand have you running out of the room
AS Jack mentioned.. In that area Horns are king... High Efficiency in general are king. You don't need to spend $50K to have that
I also believe that low efficiency speakers with the appropriate amplification simulate that very well.. Exemple Soundlab or Magnepan or a speaker like the spectacular Revel Salon 2 with 500 watts of serious amps will do that in spades.
I haven't yet heard a low sensitivity/high power system with serious jump...in fact it is usually the opposite like a dead hand on the music
There are several good horns and high sensitivity speakers with at least some jump factor (higher than Giyas, which I haven't found all that special in that regard) for under 50k like horns Universum, AG mezzo duos and Odeon 38, for example.
LOL, you are responding to 4+ year old posts......but it is an interesting subject.
I agree that horns can have that immediacy and jump factor. to me the issue is a combination of speed and coherency in the mid-bass---lower mid range area. can the amp stay linear and supply the immediate needs of the speaker? and is there enough driver surface to have enough traction to fully move enough air with low enough driver excursion to stay linear? speakers showing amps tough loads will restrict the jump factor, and speakers without proper driver surface need too much excursion. will cabinet resonance impact accuracy in this frequency range?
horns do address these areas nicely. but dynamic speakers can also if enough is done about it. maybe small 2 ways have certain advantages here too. so either mega buck or small. it's the in between dynamic speakers that are wanting in the 'jump' factor.
so naturally more expensive speakers have more driver surface, lower excursion, and better cabinet construction. and they might be an easier load but price does not necessarily follow that issue.
I agree that horns can have that immediacy and jump factor. to me the issue is a combination of speed and coherency in the mid-bass---lower mid range area. can the amp stay linear and supply the immediate needs of the speaker? and is there enough driver surface to have enough traction to fully move enough air with low enough driver excursion to stay linear? speakers showing amps tough loads will restrict the jump factor, and speakers without proper driver surface need too much excursion. will cabinet resonance impact accuracy in this frequency range?
horns do address these areas nicely. but dynamic speakers can also if enough is done about it. maybe small 2 ways have certain advantages here too. so either mega buck or small. it's the in between dynamic speakers that are wanting in the 'jump' factor.
so naturally more expensive speakers have more driver surface, lower excursion, and better cabinet construction. and they might be an easier load but price does not necessarily follow that issue.
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