What music do you use to evaluate DACs?

RBFC · Apr 20, 2011

Bruce B said:
My question was directed at Lee. He said he had the DXD files and I was wondering where he got them. Sorry...

I also own both the DXD and redbook versions. The DXD version is cleaner.

Bruce, I was referring to the DXD-remastered version on K2 pictured in this thread. I don't have any DXD files. Amarra is now DXD-compatible, and my DAC will soon have a firmware update to allow up to 384, so you can send me some files any time you like!

Lee

ted_b · Apr 20, 2011

Lee, to say you have the DXD version implies you have it at 24/352k. That's all that was being said. I was gonna ask the same question as Bruce. I have a DXD-capable DAC (M2Tech Young, on demo) and several DXD files and wanted to find out where you got this recording in DXD. Confusion cleared up; it's all still redbook....damn!!

P.S. Pure Music has been capable of playing my 24/352 and 24/384k files since whenever, no big deal. I'm not sure why Amarra is making such a big deal about it, if core audio (audio midi) sees your DAC is capable then even iTunes should handle it.

RBFC · Apr 20, 2011

Yeah, sorry for the confusion.

The only reason that it's anything like a big deal is that Amarra sounds better to many folks than other players, me included. We're discussing the "how's and why's" in this thread:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3189-Amarra-2.2-released

Lee

garylkoh · Apr 20, 2011

The confusion has to do with FIM's marketing of the CDs as DXD right on the top of the CD. Now, I wish that there was some way for us consumers to rip the SACDs. I'm sure that the ones done by Winston/Bruce won't just be upsampled redbook!!

On the other hand, I keep being told that I can't hear more than 22kHz so any higher resolution is totally useless to me.

Ronm1 · Apr 20, 2011

garylkoh said:
The confusion has to do with FIM's marketing of the CDs as DXD right on the top of the CD. Now, I wish that there was some way for us consumers to rip the SACDs. I'm sure that the ones done by Winston/Bruce won't just be upsampled redbook!!

My current understanding from replies here and from FIM, access to the source material creates a D Master at the DXD resolution, then always down-sampled to Redbook for sale, no DXD on the disc. No up-sampling!!

As soon as the SACD format is successfully/consistently ripped it's toast. The kiss of death, IMHO

Bruce B · Apr 20, 2011

Ronm1 said:
My current understanding from replies here and from FIM, access to the source material creates a D Master at the DXD resolution, then always down-sampled to Redbook for sale, no DXD on the disc. No up-sampling!!

As soon as the SACD format is successfully/consistently ripped it's toast. The kiss of death, IMHO

Yes, that is correct. We do an analog transfer at 32/352.8 and then run through an analog console and capture at 32/352.8 If the final production is CD, then we downsample to 16/44.1

We've been ripping SACD's for about 3 years now for HDtracks.

Lee · Apr 20, 2011

I like using classical ensembles that are well recorded. The timbre of the instruments is a great help. Soundstage also helps.

garylkoh · Apr 20, 2011

amirm said:
We used a number of them Gary.

Castanet was one of the most challenging. No codec at almost any bitrate is transparent to it. Unfortunately I can't find the MPEG version online anywhere. This one is close to give you an idea: http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=57299

You can actually hear the pre-echo in the streaming version.

Next was Harpsichord. Another MPEG clip, it has rich harmonics that would magically change.

Then we had simple things like people applauding. This was an MPEG test but there wasn't anything special about it.

Male and Female solo voices are also commonly used. Suzanne Vega's song "Tom's Diner" is the track where she just sings with no music.

All in all, the theme was to have a a focused test clip that would severely push the codec. No audiophile tracks. No classical music since it is harmonic and pretty easy to compress.

In the old days, I used to have my own collection of popular music I used. Unfortunately I lost one of my servers and all the files are gone.

Thanks, Amir. A bunch of guys from the local audio club are coming to Genesis today to evaluate the new APL DAC-S and compare it to my highly modified Weiss Minerva, so I've been playing through my collection of music to find some examples of your recommendations.

The best recorded castanets I've found was on a FIM CD - Super Sounds I, Carmen Habanera Fantasia.

Harpsichord was challenging - because I could never be sure what the original sounded like. I haven't heard many live, unamplified harpsichords. I've got a number of recordings that seem well recorded (although I can't be sure) including this one:

Applause, male and female voices, etc. were easier. I've also got a bunch of tracks of individual instruments recorded in a dry and a reverberant studio.

I've got all the FIM CDs that Bruce recommended.

Unfortunately, my copy of the Kroumata Percussion Ensemble (I've ordered a copy) suggested by Lee hasn't arrived yet. As an interesting aside, last week we had Jules Blumenthal come and give us a talk about the origins of digital recording, and he brought a copy of Cage's First Construction - recorded in 16bit 50kHz on the first Soundstream recorder, and it sounded fabulous.

I managed to get a copy of Turkish Women at the Bath recommended by fas42, but I might have got a bad copy as it sounded badly recorded. I have an LP coming.....

So, I'll put to a practical test "What's the Best music to use to evaluate DACs" and write up a report.

Ronm1 · Apr 20, 2011

Bruce B said:
We've been ripping SACD's for about 3 years now for HDtracks.

I guess I'm not specifuc enough, for pro's I get it, my intent was an app available to the general public.

garylkoh · Apr 21, 2011

The two DACs that we auditioned last night turned out to be so close that none of us could reliably hear a difference. Whether it's due to the poor choice of music, or that the two DACs are actually that close sonically remains open to debate. So, FWIW, the music to evaluate DACs by.

Solo Instrument: Acoustic Guitar since a couple of us are very familiar with the sound of one:

Kaki King - Everybody Loves You: Track 7 Close Your Eyes and You'll Burst into Flames

Since our "guitar expert" couldn't identify the instrument (was it a Collings or a custom something else), we picked another guitar piece (Takamine with Martin Bluegrass Strings) that has applause to start:

Nils Lofgren - Acoustic Live: Track 1 You

Next up, the castanets recommended earlier, and a couple of tracks suggested by Bruce.

For 24/192 - I used a couple of tracks supplied by Dave Chesky.

Jazz Side of the Moon - Track 6 Money

and Louise Rogers - Black Coffee - Track 1 Comes Love

At the end of the night - as has been what we've found lately, the music won. All of us could easily live with either DAC, and it was almost impossible to tell them apart.

Lee · Apr 23, 2011

That Nils disc is outstanding and a personal favorite Gary. In a similar vein, I recommend the acoustic Stripped by the Rolling Stones.

Lee · Apr 23, 2011

Steve Williams said:
I agree Gary. Between Winston's wonderful release of older albums and having Bruce remaster them, I have all of the FIM albums and they all occupy top row of my music collection.

Same here and their cousins the LIM discs are also sublime.

LL21 · Apr 23, 2011

I have not heard FIM CDs and am now looking into buying some to hear. I will say that having heard "ordinary" remastered versions on CD...there is a LOT to be said for proper mastering, regardless of format. While clearly great mastering and hi-res must be the best, all else being equal, i also will say that given the apparently trend in downloads (mp3) for much of the music out there, but also the recent trend of remastered series...i really am quite happy with 16/44 for the moment...and particularly happy to wait until the hi-res thing settles down a bit more. i would hate to go buy everything in 24/96 and then find out in 2 years it is all available at 32/354 or something.

Lee · Apr 23, 2011

Gary, if you like the Cheskys then also check out the John Hammond SACD. It is very well done, even by Chesky standards.

garylkoh · Apr 23, 2011

lloydelee21 said:
I have not heard FIM CDs and am now looking into buying some to hear. I will say that having heard "ordinary" remastered versions on CD...there is a LOT to be said for proper mastering, regardless of format. While clearly great mastering and hi-res must be the best, all else being equal, i also will say that given the apparently trend in downloads (mp3) for much of the music out there, but also the recent trend of remastered series...i really am quite happy with 16/44 for the moment...and particularly happy to wait until the hi-res thing settles down a bit more. i would hate to go buy everything in 24/96 and then find out in 2 years it is all available at 32/354 or something.

IMHO proper mastering trumps format and resolution. I've got the FIM SACD of JATP, some 4 different versions on digital, and four different pressings on vinyl. The latest FIM K2HD version mastered in Japan is far better than the SACD when played on the same machine (Sony SCD-777ES), and served from a digital server is better than all my vinyl pressings except for the first pressing.

I have numerous examples of 16/44.1 that sound better than remastered newer versions (usually just nothing but louder and more compressed) on high-rez DVD-A.

Because I can't rip SACD to a music server, I haven't bought a new SACD for years and years.

Ronm1 · Apr 23, 2011

Yes, it appears we all in agreement that FIM & LIM releases are topshelf and Hires never guarantees a phile product

RBFC · Apr 23, 2011

garylkoh said:
IMHO proper mastering trumps format and resolution. I've got the FIM SACD of JATP, some 4 different versions on digital, and four different pressings on vinyl. The latest FIM K2HD version mastered in Japan is far better than the SACD when played on the same machine (Sony SCD-777ES), and served from a digital server is better than all my vinyl pressings except for the first pressing.

I have numerous examples of 16/44.1 that sound better than remastered newer versions (usually just nothing but louder and more compressed) on high-rez DVD-A.

Because I can't rip SACD to a music server, I haven't bought a new SACD for years and years.

When the vibes come in on Limehouse Blues, they're virtually three-dimensional on the K2 release. Incredible.

Lee

Bruce B · Nov 7, 2012

Bruce B said:
I just finished this a month or so ago so they're not out yet. I'll let you know when they're available. The title of the discs will be "Adventure Music Piano Masters" I think this was Vol. 2
There will be a Vol. 3 that we did with Weber Iago.

As a follow-up to post #17, here are 2 reviews of a Brazilian Jazz Pianist, Weber Iago that we mastered.

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What music do you use to evaluate DACs?

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