When is Hi-Res not really Hi-Res?

Orb

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Julf,
another aspect to consider from a business point is this;
Studios like the one Bruce works at are paid (contracted) to do a specific job, if there is scope creep and checking every file for quality in terms of upsampling/filter affects/bits real and not a spoof 24-bits as an example/etc add additional time.
So is it fair that Bruce and the studio lose out on revenue because the source contracts on a specific job without paying for the extra service?
That said I appreciate the ones who lose out is us.
Cheers
Orb
 

Julf

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JSo is it fair that Bruce and the studio lose out on revenue because the source contracts on a specific job without paying for the extra service?

I was being very careful not to get into the 'what is fair and what is not" argument, I was just trying to make sure I understood what Bruce was saying.

I agree with you that people like Bruce have to do what the customer specifies, and I also understand that the customer relationship and contractual details can not be discussed publicly.

That said I appreciate the ones who lose out is us.

As well as the studio engineers who are forced to do a sub-standard job because of cost issues.

Cheers,

Julf
 

Orb

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Appreciate that Julf and I hope mine did not seem critical of your post.
Just was an aspect that I felt also fitted well with your comments, that possibly a few here may not had considered.

Thanks
Orb
 

Julf

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Appreciated, Orb, didn't take it as critical. And you definitely have a point.
 

Bruce B

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Do I understand correctly that what you are saying is that the distributors are relying on people like you to check the files, but that you don't have the time to check every single track?
Julf

Hi Julf.... yes, that is correct. We do not check every single track on an album. This would be cost prohibitive for the client. We were instructed to spot check, taking a couple files from each.
 

Julf

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Thanks for the clarification, Bruce!
 

Bruce B

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I guess this rears it's ugly head every week.

Over at SA-CD.net, the Audacity Cowboys are doing FFT on Chandos recordings. So to do an FFT on DSD material, you need to convert to PCM with NO filters. Teresa goes as far as to capture the analog signal from her SACD player???? Every SACD player has a filter to attenuate the UHF content.

Then I see FFT plots with Blackman, Hamming, Hann, Blackman-Harris, Kaiser-Bessel and everything inbetween! I also see samples as little as 2-3 seconds and ranges that stop at -96dB

What sayeth ye??
 

RBFC

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Bruce,

It's human nature, especially on the internet, to find fault with others. The anonymity provided by screen names and distance tempts people to behave in a manner that they would never consider when addressing you in person. In this case, there is virtually no penalty to them for failing to follow good scientific rigor (except for a little loss-of-face for their screen name).

Lee
 

garylkoh

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Bruce,

It's human nature, especially on the internet, to find fault with others. The anonymity provided by screen names and distance tempts people to behave in a manner that they would never consider when addressing you in person. In this case, there is virtually no penalty to them for failing to follow good scientific rigor (except for a little loss-of-face for their screen name).

Lee

That, in itself, might be a good reason for WBF to have all members have their real name on their profiles...... It would increase the credibility of member suggestions, postings, etc. You wouldn't put something here that you don't believe and would stand behind in real life.
 

RBFC

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That, in itself, might be a good reason for WBF to have all members have their real name on their profiles...... It would increase the credibility of member suggestions, postings, etc. You wouldn't put something here that you don't believe and would stand behind in real life.

Well, Gary, both our names are out there, as well as Bruce and many others here. It would be nice if others were to follow suit.

Lee
 

wgscott

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I guess this rears it's ugly head every week.

....

Then I see FFT plots with Blackman, Hamming, Hann, Blackman-Harris, Kaiser-Bessel and everything inbetween! I also see samples as little as 2-3 seconds and ranges that stop at -96dB

What sayeth ye??

Why not create a short guide describing how to do this properly?

The fact is that a fair percentage of stuff I have bought on HD tracks, for example, is problematic, and the problems are so unambiguous and robust enough to be quite clear regardless of whether one chooses FFT plots with Blackman, Hamming, Hann, Blackman-Harris, Kaiser-Bessel and everything in between, and dynamic ranges above -96dB.

We in fact saw that to be the case for what HD tracks sold to me for the "True Stories" downloads. I re-plotted the data every time someone objected. If anything, what you guys suggested further emphasized the problem, rather than minimizing it.

William G. Scott
 

wgscott

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... the Audacity Cowboys are doing FFT on Chandos recordings. So to do an FFT on DSD material, you need to convert to PCM with NO filters.

The thread you linked refers back to another on ComputerAudiophile.com, in which Julf (see above) posted this image:



This is obtained directly from what is sold by HDtracks, i.e., a Fourier of a 24 bit, 88 kHz FLAC file:

https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=catalogdetail&valbum_code=HD095115506929

Just to clarify, are you suggesting there is not a problem with this file, and that the only problem resides with the incompetence of Julf and his analysis?
 

Bruce B

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The thread you linked refers back to another on ComputerAudiophile.com, in which Julf (see above) posted this image:



This is obtained directly from what is sold by HDtracks, i.e., a Fourier of a 24 bit, 88 kHz FLAC file:

https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=catalogdetail&valbum_code=HD095115506929

Just to clarify, are you suggesting there is not a problem with this file, and that the only problem resides with the incompetence of Julf and his analysis?

Well there is no brickwall at 22.05k or 24k.... so something is amiss. I would have instead thrown out everything below 10k and built the graph upon that. Seems there may have been a filter applied in the mixing/mastering process. I would not write it off as some upsampled file... IMO...
 

Julf

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Well there is no brickwall at 22.05k or 24k.... so something is amiss. I would have instead thrown out everything below 10k and built the graph upon that. Seems there may have been a filter applied in the mixing/mastering process. I would not write it off as some upsampled file... IMO...

I am here to learn - so, just for my education, how would the spectrum look like if you took some CD (44.1/16) or 48/16 material, and upsampled it in DSD for SACD, and then took that material and converted it to 96/24 PCM? My naive assumption would be that there would be a very steep drop in content at 22 or 24 kHz, and then a softly increasing noise spectrum (from the DSD noise-shaping) above that, again falling when the low-pass filtering for the PCM kicks in.
 

Julf

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how would the spectrum look like if you took some CD (44.1/16) or 48/16 material, and upsampled it in DSD for SACD, and then took that material and converted it to 96/24 PCM? My naive assumption would be that there would be a very steep drop in content at 22 or 24 kHz, and then a softly increasing noise spectrum (from the DSD noise-shaping) above that, again falling when the low-pass filtering for the PCM kicks in.

I guess the silence is an answer of sorts too...
 

Bruce B

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I guess the silence is an answer of sorts too...

Actually it's not. I have a day job (Anesthesia). I'm in the studio from when I get home 'til midnight, where I have almost a 2 month backlog of projects. I will get to this when I have more breathing room.... sorry for the delay.
 

Julf

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I will get to this when I have more breathing room.... sorry for the delay.

Thanks - much appreciated! And yes, work pressure is understandable - but I guess the upside is that it probably means business is going well. So no hurry with this - it's only a hobby for us anyway.
 

Bruce B

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The new Madonna files on HDtracks have a unique signature. Below you can see a text book hi-rez 24/96 file.
 

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Bruce B

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Now, on another track of the album, if a novice did a spectral analysis in Audacity or something, they would swear it was upsampled.
 

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