High end Munich 2017

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
Hi All,
People are just getting more and more scared to have anything "affordable" at the show for lack of being taken "seriously".




Magico and Spectral = cold dead fish

Soulution and ?? (remind me) = cold dead metallic fish



CH precision and Wilson Benesch: Someone please tell me what the fascination is with this brand of electronics?? It is not as Soulless as Soulution but it is bland bland bland. Wilson Benesch is also not a favorite as it tends to sound rather dead dynamically but this was pretty lifeless listening. With all due respect to Gian et. al I don't get what you guys are hearing there.



FM acoustics demonstrated their insanely priced gear and I can say it did dynamics well but it sounded pushed and the highs were wiry and thin. Not worth the nutso money.


.

That's a great write up, morricab. I think you may have answered your own question about so many of these manufacturer's...like CH precision and Soulution, etc. Your highlighted first statement is the answer. It's far more logical to produce electronics and other gear in small quantities and with nice casework and ask insane pricing than to risk producing the same gear with 'good enough' casework and ask an entry level price...thereby making the piece available to a much larger audience, but also being susceptible to the 'audio snob' who has to have the best...and equates best with highest price and bling casing ( Hello Mr. Dan D'Agostino- and so many others who TOTALLY get this!!). Even though those with good ears are completely questioning the sound of said piece, LOL. IMHO, this is the current and possibly future state of high end audio. Unfortunately, I also believe that this marketing plan could ultimately lead to the complete demise of the industry. Luckily, there are still some folks who are trying to bring great sounding gear to the market at entry level prices....problem is they are typically looked upon in a less favorable light! Sometimes, I question whether the MF's and JV's of the world along with their "anything below $500K is pretty cheap" philosophy, is in fact beneficial to this hobby?????
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,986
978
Switzerland
I'm always interested in everyone's Best In Show. Do you have one?

Not a knock out like in the past (where LV/Kondo conquered all).

Top 3 (in no particular order):

Odeon with New Audio Frontiers monos and pre with Aqua digital (Formula DAC and ?? transport). Maybe I am biased as I own two pairs of speakers from this brand but it was really good to my ears. I have always like the NAF amps and this Aqua DAC seems to be great stuff.

Aries Cerat and Vyger TT. Has the makings of greatness but needed a bigger room to full express that. The one spot in the room that really worked was dynamics central...no box speaker can do this...none...most horns don't get it fully right either.

WE/Silbatone: Speakers are Unobtainium but still in the top three this year.

honorable mention:

LV/Kondo. Just missed the top three this year but still in the top 5.

Zanden/Kroma. Only conventional speaker setup to really convince me this year.

Acapella. Good allround tone and balance and very good dynamics.

Ayon. Well balanced as well and good tone and dynamics...missed them above but they were good.

Avantgarde Trio/basshorns...again with better electronics could be a dream system.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,986
978
Switzerland
Sorry, we disagree. I lived in Munich for 6 months and there is no good Indian dining there, though it might be a matter of taste

So, now you are going to challenge what someone likes to eat...get a life...
 

manisandher

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2011
243
217
950
www.the2ndtier.com
We seem to agree on most things. However...

Tune Audio. This was a horn that did not work, IMO. It was veiled in the mids and thin while the tweeter sounded poorly integrated and the bass was wooly. Proof that horn design is very much an art form because I really like the Anima and suspect that the little Prime would work great in a modest room. I give them credit for a very bold design and ambitious execution but...it simply didn't work sonically.

Not sure how much a work-in-progress the Avatons still are. My thoughts on Friday was that they sounded thick and veiled and totally unimpressive. And I was going to write as much, advising people to just go for the Animas. But this totally changed on my return on Saturday afternoon. Don't get me wrong, listening to my Animas right now, there's no way I'd swap them for what I heard of the Avatons in Munich. But compared to 99% of the other stuff there, what I heard on Saturday afternoon convinced me there is some magic sitting somewhere in the Avatons. Perhaps I just hit the sweet spot with the music that was playing at the time. But others in the room also felt as I did about them - many of us sat there for a good 20-30 minuted not moving at all, with smiles on our faces.

Not sure how much the Avatons retail for (obviously a lot more than the Animas), but I agree, this level of inconsistency isn't acceptable and needs to be ironed out.

Mani.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,986
978
Switzerland
That's a great write up, morricab. I think you may have answered your own question about so many of these manufacturer's...like CH precision and Soulution, etc. Your highlighted first statement is the answer. It's far more logical to produce electronics and other gear in small quantities and with nice casework and ask insane pricing than to risk producing the same gear with 'good enough' casework and ask an entry level price...thereby making the piece available to a much larger audience, but also being susceptible to the 'audio snob' who has to have the best...and equates best with highest price and bling casing ( Hello Mr. Dan D'Agostino- and so many others who TOTALLY get this!!). Even though those with good ears are completely questioning the sound of said piece, LOL. IMHO, this is the current and possibly future state of high end audio. Unfortunately, I also believe that this marketing plan could ultimately lead to the complete demise of the industry. Luckily, there are still some folks who are trying to bring great sounding gear to the market at entry level prices....problem is they are typically looked upon in a less favorable light! Sometimes, I question whether the MF's and JV's of the world along with their "anything below $500K is pretty cheap" philosophy, is in fact beneficial to this hobby?????

All very good points. A friend of mine looked inside the Soulution and the sheer parts count in that amp is astounding! Looks like they had a sale on parts that week and Soulution just couldn't get enough inside their gear.

Prices are totally ego prices...but that was true for most of the stuff on display...even from companies no one ever heard of before!!

There was one really good sounding speaker for 1500 euro...yes I did not forget a zero or two. It was from the Danish brand Gato and it was superb for low money. Probably will be 20K next year... ;-).

I mean the Infinity IRS Betas that I had a dozen years ago were $16K new back in the early 90s and that was considered very expensive. It was a serious piece of hardware, with those exotic L-Emim, Emim and Emits as well as electronic crossover and two towers of 4 x 12 inch woofers. You could see where your $16K went. Magico has monitors that cost twice that now...its a joke and I can tell you that a correctly set up IRS Beta stomps Magico (name your model except the big outrageous horn model) into the ground...like the classic film Bambi meets Godzilla. Acoutstats sound better than 99% of what is out there today and they were inexpensive relatively when new and cheap now. The new Quads I heard were laughably bad in comparison. The Audio Exklusive stuff is OK but a big Acoustat has way more guts and just as much resolution. Jim Strickland KNEW how to design a speaker. The new Rockport Lyras were not bad sounding at all but for $172K they are not a good value at all and likely outperformed by Jim Thiel's last great speaker the CS3.7 for 1/10th the price. If that speaker was 30K it might be something to consider.

I was also disappointed to see Odeon reach for the stars with their new model. To be fair, it is a big imposing thing so there is some material value there I guess. But 124K euro is steep when their previous top model, the No. 38, was < 40K and is pretty kickass in its own right.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,434
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London

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,434
13,467
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London
So reread your post...there is no attempted humor there.

Wow - you don't get that an actual long post on hifi, the disagreement is purposefully directed at the food and "matter of taste", a nod to hifi disagreements?
 

Syntax

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2012
259
307
970
At The Dark Side
Hi All,

Magico and Spectral = cold dead fish

....


Ahem, may I do a correction, please?
you forgot the amps:
the right description now is:

Magico and Spectral and Pass = multiple cold dead fish

anyway... when one or the other dealer is looking for something he can sell and make a living,

a very good - correct sounding - combination was Line Magnetic Audio (integrated amp 5k€ public price) paired with Supravox Speakers (4.5K€)
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
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(...) I mean the Infinity IRS Betas that I had a dozen years ago were $16K new back in the early 90s and that was considered very expensive. It was a serious piece of hardware, with those exotic L-Emim, Emim and Emits as well as electronic crossover and two towers of 4 x 12 inch woofers. You could see where your $16K went. (...)

Morricab,

Just a few notes. A good friend had the Beta's along the 90's and I spent many hours listening to them - they sounded great at that time with some LP recordings. But they were not reliable - he had to change several units and unfortunately they were not able to play digital decently. These speakers are now at the home of another acquaintance - I could have got them at a bargain price around 2002 and decided not to do it. In order to be built at low price the built quality was low - like the great sounding Soundlab's of the 90's, I must say. Due to the low profit margins some of these companies went in financial trouble, letting unhappy customers along the way.

SoundLab A1 listed at 10.5 k in the TAS 1992 buyer guide. Similar aspect current A1 's list around 40 k, tweaked crossover around 45k. Looking at the built quality of both I easily understand where my money now goes.

Gary Koh has explained in WBF why his higher range speakers are expensive - interested readers can look in the old Genesis threads.
 

gian60

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2016
2,503
1,943
343
Hello to everybody,

i was not in München this year but i am 90% agree with all you because yours ideas are similar my ideas of last 2 years,where i see the system was similar.
Its difficult to find good system in an exhibition,i visit all the Italian exhibition,since 1974 plus Paris, but there are a lot of good products,even if now all have incredible price.

But my 44 years experience teached me that before give one judgement you have to listen at home in your system to understand the right value,
for exemple in last 2 years the Costellation room not impressive me a lot but i would like to test in my home Altair and Hercules,for example.And i am sure will be wonderful.

And is not simple to have a good sound in a system,you have to work a lot.

Dear Morricab,about CH, i would like you had my experience with CH and all trial i did with them,so you can understand their value.I don't know which experience you had with CH.
I tested in a shop for 1 month against Rowland Criterion and 925,Gryphon Pandora and Mephisto,Pass XS and XS 300,Esoteric Grandioso pre mono and mono amp,Aesthetix Callisto Signature and Atlas mono, D' Agostino Momentum and in my home with Kondo Ksl Ongaku,M7,Ge1 2 souga,MActone otl M8v mono,Burmeister 911,at home of my friend with Viva pre with power supply and Aurora mono,Audio note Jinro,ecc and was much better of everything in every parameter.

Then i don't say is the best because there are a lot of good amp.but now really i love them.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
Morricab,

Just a few notes. A good friend had the Beta's along the 90's and I spent many hours listening to them - they sounded great at that time with some LP recordings. But they were not reliable - he had to change several units and unfortunately they were not able to play digital decently. These speakers are now at the home of another acquaintance - I could have got them at a bargain price around 2002 and decided not to do it. In order to be built at low price the built quality was low - like the great sounding Soundlab's of the 90's, I must say. Due to the low profit margins some of these companies went in financial trouble, letting unhappy customers along the way.

SoundLab A1 listed at 10.5 k in the TAS 1992 buyer guide. Similar aspect current A1 's list around 40 k, tweaked crossover around 45k. Looking at the built quality of both I easily understand where my money now goes.

Gary Koh has explained in WBF why his higher range speakers are expensive - interested readers can look in the old Genesis threads.

good to know...any thoughts on the build quality of the old Apogees? perhaps it does not matter because the materials degrade and almost any Apogee today has had multiple repairs if not a complete overhaul...in which case it is really the quality of the overhaul. In any event, were the old Apogees reliable?
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,678
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Greater Boston
That's a great write up, morricab. I think you may have answered your own question about so many of these manufacturer's...like CH precision and Soulution, etc. Your highlighted first statement is the answer. It's far more logical to produce electronics and other gear in small quantities and with nice casework and ask insane pricing than to risk producing the same gear with 'good enough' casework and ask an entry level price...thereby making the piece available to a much larger audience, but also being susceptible to the 'audio snob' who has to have the best...and equates best with highest price and bling casing ( Hello Mr. Dan D'Agostino- and so many others who TOTALLY get this!!). Even though those with good ears are completely questioning the sound of said piece, LOL. IMHO, this is the current and possibly future state of high end audio. Unfortunately, I also believe that this marketing plan could ultimately lead to the complete demise of the industry. Luckily, there are still some folks who are trying to bring great sounding gear to the market at entry level prices....problem is they are typically looked upon in a less favorable light! Sometimes, I question whether the MF's and JV's of the world along with their "anything below $500K is pretty cheap" philosophy, is in fact beneficial to this hobby?????

Good points in principle, Davey, but I have heard the CH Precision P1 phono amp and it's excellent, worth the money. Also Spectral which is poo-pooed by Brad (morricab) is more than worth the money. Their gear is relatively much cheaper priced than much of their competition, but the quirk of having to use special cables is an issue of course, even though their decision is understandable from an extreme engineering point of view, as Ack has argued very well elsewhere.

In any case, Schiit may be one of the saviors of this industry. They sell 65,000 units of gear annually and bring audiophilia to the masses, also, and perhaps in particular, young ones. Their flagship DAC Yggdrasil is now on the 4th day of my burn in and ridiculously good, in absolute terms (agree with Robert Harley on this one). Even though it costs just $ 2,300. Thank you very much, Davey, for starting the Schiit thread. It reminded me that I should give the Yggy, as it's called, a try.

The chassis of the Yggy looks great -- better than my Berkeley -- and is very solid (and quite heavy), even though it's done on purpose in the cheapest way possible (it's basically a U-bend), in order to put the money where it's needed, i.e. top digital technology. That technology is designed/implemented by Mike Moffat of Theta fame -- the man knows what he's doing. They also offer the DAC only in silver, because color options are more expensive. Another smart choice. The DAC is the very opposite of 'audiophile jewelry', as Schiit call it.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
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(...) But my 44 years experience teached me that before give one judgement you have to listen at home in your system to understand the right value(...)

Wise words - you are wiser than me I started going to shows only 39 years ago! :) Do you remember the 80's Penta Show's?
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Good points in principle, Davey, but I have heard the CH Precision P1 phono amp and it's excellent, worth the money. Also Spectral which is poo-pooed by Brad (morricab) is more than worth the money. Their gear is relatively much cheaper priced than much of their competition, but the quirk of having to use special cables is an issue of course, even though their decision is understandable from an extreme engineering point of view, as Ack has argued very well elsewhere.

In any case, Schiit may be one of the saviors of this industry. They sell 65,000 units of gear annually and bring audiophilia to the masses, also, and perhaps in particular, young ones. Their flagship DAC Yggdrasil is now on the 4th day of my burn in and ridiculously good, in absolute terms (agree with Robert Harley on this one). Even though it costs just $ 2,300. Thank you very much, Davey, for starting the Schiit thread. It reminded me that I should give the Yggy, as it's called, a try.

The chassis of the Yggy looks great -- better than my Berkeley -- and is very solid (and quite heavy), even though it's done on purpose in the cheapest way possible (it's basically a U-bend), in order to put the money where it's needed, i.e. top digital technology. That technology is designed/implemented by Mike Moffat of Theta fame -- the man knows what he's doing. They also offer the DAC only in silver, because color options are more expensive. Another smart choice. The DAC is the very opposite of 'audiophile jewelry', as Schiit call it.

Good to know Al

Is this the same Schiit DAC that Amir has torched?
 

reverendo

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2014
119
9
325
Dallas, TX
Stein cone speakers for 10k euro retail. Ask jazzhead as well. Small cones, big sounding.
where can I find their homepage. sorry, but wasn't able to find it with this info. thanks in advance
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,601
5,411
1,278
E. England
Zu Audio are also saviours of the reasonably priced
Models from $2k to $15k
Definitions 4s currently sounding stellar in my very neutral and revealing space
 
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shakti

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May 9, 2015
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Cologne, Germany
4 days in Munich , what a wonder full experience, again!

I am currently looking mainly for a new turntable , so I listened to all the different Kronos set ups, I loved all three TechDas Performances, mainly the one, where Nishikawa himself made the Demo, specially the press release on Thursday afternoon was a spectacle , as he played very special records from his collection, driving arround 3kw into the Giya speakers... than knocking in the turntable platter to show, no noise at all through the cartridge...crazy old man :)

I heard to great cartridges , the new van den Hul colibri "Stradivarius" with Hawaiian Koa wood and a "Stradivari" treatment of the wood., great sound. I was specially impressed , as the system was also fitted into Thomas Schick's set up with Schick headshell and Tonearm, normally a "no" match!"

the other one was the new Transfiguration Proteus Diamond , which doubles the price of the Proteus, but resolution was a statement in its own.

To relax from all the popular voiced demos, I spent some time with greek ypsilon electronics on Wilson Benesh, one of the most relaxed and best sounds of the show.

And to relax from all the boring demo music, it is always a pleasure to visit Thoeress, he brings mostly all the nice records to Munich and the famous Derenville Turntable on the Thoeress Phono Enhancer is a great partnership I have to say, I am not the greatest fan of the Thoeress speakers....

The Idea of adjustable Phono curves was also seen at Air Tight, who presented their new PhonoPre, but unfortunately they had choosen boring speakers...

looking forward to the next Munich show!!!

Juergen
 

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shakti

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DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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La Jolla, Calif USA
Good to know Al

Is this the same Schiit DAC that Amir has torched?

I think Amir was talking about a different DAC, the Schiit Modi 2... which sells for $99-! However, I believe he also dislikes the Bifrost DAC and I'm pretty sure he would find fault with the Yggy.

Luckily, he doesn't have to listen to any of these DAC's to know how they sound.....l
 

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