What SET amplifiers have Realistic Midrange Magic AND have the Great BASS? Rock your Horns!

Audiocrack · Jun 15, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Which 211 tubes do you use? Shakti who uses Airtight 211 was particularly fond of the KR 211 tubes saying they gave him the best of 211 and 845 mix of power and mids

Not using 211 valves at the moment but Kondo Kaguoh 300b amps. However when I played in the past with the Kondo Gakuons I was using (nos) GE tubes. At the time I also bought a quad of United Electronics 211 tubes. According to some the UE 211 valves belong to the best 211 tubes available. A friend of mine is playing with the G1000/Kagura combi and uses RCA 211 tubes. I liked those tubes. Sadly both the UE and RCA 211 tubes are very difficult to find in good condition and very expensive.

morricab · Jun 15, 2017

Audiocrack said:
You can add to this list Kondo Kagura amps: very, very strong 50 - 211 single ended - watts.

Good point. Didn't add it because I haven't heard them under controlled enough conditions.

Audiocrack · Jun 15, 2017

morricab said:
Good point. Didn't add it because I haven't heard them under controlled enough conditions.

I heard them once, albeit three days in a row, in Paris at a friend's place. His French made speakers are pretty inefficient (below 90db) but with a server as well as with a (completely refurbished) Studer A80 mk ii the Kagura/G1000 combination sounded very powerful indeed. According to my friend the Kagura's are much stronger than his former Kondo Gakuons that he played with the M1000 mk ii preamp. Btw, I could not listen to the latter combo.

The additional (perceived?) power is likely (partly) due to the Kondo G1000 linestage. According to my friend his system sounds clearly more powerful with the Kagura/G1000 combo than the Kagura/M1000 mk ii combo. Of course the G1000 was created by the Kondo factory to bring out the very best of its natural partner, the Kagura amps. So probably this combination yields some synergistic effects, including more (perceived?) power.

morricab · Jun 15, 2017

Audiocrack said:
I heard them once, albeit three days in a row, in Paris at a friend's place. His French made speakers are pretty inefficient (below 90db) but with a server as well as with a (completely refurbished) Studer A80 mk ii the Kagura/G1000 combination sounded very powerful indeed. According to my friend the Kagura's are much stronger than his former Kondo Gakuons that he played with the M1000 mk ii preamp. Btw, I could not listen to the latter combo.

The additional (perceived?) power is likely (partly) due to the Kondo G1000 linestage. According to my friend his system sounds clearly more powerful with the Kagura/G1000 combo than the Kagura/M1000 mk ii combo. Of course the G1000 was created by the Kondo factory to bring out the very best of its natural partner, the Kagura amps. So probably this combination yields some synergistic effects, including more (perceived?) power.

I have heard the M1000 (not sure if MkI or II) and GakuOn a number of times but was never blown away by it. I always found the GakuOh PSE and PP 300B amps to sound better overall. None is a slam monster and i would not recommend them for less than 93db speakers, but the finesse and utterly natural and easy transparency was a revelation to me at that time. Great stuff. For a fraction of the cost of Kondo, the New Audio Frontiers 845SE and 300B Supreme are great amps with a similar smooth, easy resolution and big dynamics. Not Kondo good but 1/10th the price for about 85% the sound.

Audiocrack · Jun 15, 2017

morricab said:
I have heard the M1000 (not sure if MkI or II) and GakuOn a number of times but was never blown away by it. I always found the GakuOh PSE and PP 300B amps to sound better overall. None is a slam monster and i would not recommend them for less than 93db speakers, but the finesse and utterly natural and easy transparency was a revelation to me at that time. Great stuff. For a fraction of the cost of Kondo, the New Audio Frontiers 845SE and 300B Supreme are great amps with a similar smooth, easy resolution and big dynamics. Not Kondo good but 1/10th the price for about 85% the sound.

You are spot on with your description of the Kondo sound, Morricab!

I have not yet heard in any solid state amplifier (or tube amplification for that matter but I have not heard amps from brands such as Audio Tekne and the like) the utterly unmechanical presentation of the music that the Kondo's are able to deliver.

As you I prefer the Gakuoh 300b amps to the Gakuon 211 amps. Do not know how the Kagura's fit into this picture as I have not heard those in any of my set ups.

Using the Gakuoh se amps in combination with my Tidal LA's that are about 96db efficient and quite lineair without nasty (down) drops.

And yes, Kondo prices are insane (or even perverse if you want but the same applies to quite a few other high end brands). Not happy about that at all!

Audiocrack · Jun 15, 2017

And oh ... I forgot to mention: you probably listened to the m1000 mk ii linestage. To my ears (and to quite a few other Kondo 'connoisseurs') the m1000 mk i is the better/finer unit. However, it is quite scarce. Only a relative few of this mk i linestage (dating from the Kondo San time) were produced.

microstrip · Jun 17, 2017

Do you think these Wavac He833 v1.3 amplifiers have Realistic Midrange Magic AND the Great BASS? They are currently being sold in the german eBay - fortunately far enough from me, otherwise I could feel tempted!

Audiocrack · Jun 17, 2017

microstrip said:
Do you think these Wavac He833 v1.3 amplifiers have Realistic Midrange Magic AND the Great BASS? They are currently being sold in the german eBay - fortunately far enough from me, otherwise I could feel tempted!

I do not know as I have not heard these amps yet. Somebody I know very well in the Netherlands is currently selling its (biggest) Wavac brother, that is the (monster) Wavac amps Michael Fremer tested many moons ago for Stereophile. Because of its very high/crazy retailprice (usd 350k) I resisted the temptation (so far) to listen to these huge amps. But maybe I am wrong in doing so (although I am sure my wife is very happy about my 'bold resistance').

Mike Lavigne · Jun 17, 2017

Audiocrack said:
I do not know as I have not heard these amps yet. Somebody I know very well in the Netherlands is currently selling its (biggest) Wavac brother, that is the (monster) Wavac amps Michael Fremer tested many moons ago for Stereophile. Because of its very high/crazy retailprice (usd 350k) I resisted the temptation (so far) to listen to these huge amps. But maybe I am wrong in doing so (although I am sure my wife is very happy about my 'bold resistance').

http://www.highendaudio.nl/en/apparatuur/wavac-sh-833/

that link is from my 'favorites'.

and here is the 2004 Fremer review;

https://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/index.html

last fall when I was 'jonesing' for a tube amp I briefly considered selling my CS2 and buying these. then made some system adjustments and got a grip.

I say 'go for it!!! you only live once.

that would be as crazy as buying a 6 figure dac that still 'needs' another $20k power supply.

honestly it likely does not possess the musical touch of your Kondo kit, but would party down much better on the LA's!!!

microstrip · Jun 17, 2017

Audiocrack said:
I do not know as I have not heard these amps yet. Somebody I know very well in the Netherlands is currently selling its (biggest) Wavac brother, that is the (monster) Wavac amps Michael Fremer tested many moons ago for Stereophile. Because of its very high/crazy retailprice (usd 350k) I resisted the temptation (so far) to listen to these huge amps. But maybe I am wrong in doing so (although I am sure my wife is very happy about my 'bold resistance').

OK, I find easier to resist to those because of the high price, even at discount, although I have spent some time looking at the advertisements a few weeks ago

. WBF member airbearing, the owner of the forum audiocirc.com owns a pair of those. But the HE833 v1.3's are listed at almost one fourth of the big ones!

Mike Lavigne · Jun 17, 2017

microstrip said:
OK, I find easier to resist to those because of the high price, even at discount, although I have spent some time looking at the advertisements a few weeks ago . WBF member airbearing, the owner of the forum audiocirc.com owns a pair of those. But the HE833 v1.3's are listed at almost one fourth of the big ones!

the one's in the picture are v2 (version 2.....not the v1.3) with the added power supplies (the black boxes below) which are more than double the HE833 v1.3 cost.

Audiocrack · Jun 17, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
http://www.highendaudio.nl/en/apparatuur/wavac-sh-833/

that link is from my 'favorites'.

and here is the 2004 Fremer review;

https://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/index.html

last fall when I was 'jonesing' for a tube amp I briefly considered selling my CS2 and buying these. then made some system adjustments and got a grip.

I say 'go for it!!! you only live once.

that would be as crazy as buying a 6 figure dac that still 'needs' another $20k power supply.

honestly it likely does not possess the musical touch of your Kondo kit, but would party down much better on the LA's!!!

I appreciate your encouragement, Mike, but I am not going to do it. Never liked the Wavac preamps and a preamp/power amp combination needs to 'glew' together in order to get top notch sound. Kondo preamp and Wavac power amps do not seem to be a natural fit (although you never know for sure untill you listened to such a combo in your own system).

If I would be of the opinion that I need more power with my LA's (but I do not think I actually need more power; and if I want tighter/deeper bass I would opt for biamping with some good solid state amplification for the low end like the Tidal LA monoblocs or the new Tidal Ferios monoblocs) I would like to try out first the Kondo Kagura amps (with some good nos tubes and top notch fuses; I am sure most reviewers of the Kagura amps have not heard the best of these amps because they played with the standard fuses and standard (non nos) valves).

Audiocrack · Jun 17, 2017

microstrip said:
OK, I find easier to resist to those because of the high price, even at discount, although I have spent some time looking at the advertisements a few weeks ago . WBF member airbearing, the owner of the forum audiocirc.com owns a pair of those. But the HE833 v1.3's are listed at almost one fourth of the big ones!

Ah ... all those audio temptations ... life is (sometimes) sweet.

microstrip · Jun 17, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
the one's in the picture are v2 (version 2.....not the v1.3) with the added power supplies (the black boxes below) which are more than double the HE833 v1.3 cost.

Yes, this is a photo of member airbearing room. They cost almost four times the price of the V1.3! It is why the used v1.3 looks like a bargain.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 17, 2017

microstrip said:
Yes, this is a photo of member airbearing room. They cost almost four times the price of the V1.3! It is why the used v1.3 looks like a bargain.

I got my v2 confused with Mk II. the one's Airbearing has are the 'Mk II' with the black boxes below which are the power supplies.

a v2 is the updated v1.3.; neither of which have the separate power supplies.

then there is the really big boy, the HE-833 (without any numbers or Mk designations).

it's all here including USA pricing---

http://www.covenantaudio.com/products.html

scroll down for pictures and descriptions of the current line-up. at the top of the page is a description of a re-furbished v1.3 but it's no longer a current model.

microstrip · Jun 17, 2017

Audiocrack said:
(...) If I would be of the opinion that I need more power with my LA's (but I do not think I actually need more power; and if I want tighter/deeper bass I would opt for biamping with some good solid state amplification for the low end like the Tidal LA monoblocs or the new Tidal Ferios monoblocs) I would like to first try out the Kondo Kagura amps (with some good nos tubes and top notch fuses; I am sure most reviewers of the Kagura amps have not heard the best of these amps because they played with the standard fuses and standard (non nos) valves).

Sorry, what is your current preamplfier and amplifier?

microstrip · Jun 17, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
I got my v2 confused with Mk II. the one's Airbearing has are the 'Mk II' with the black boxes below which are the power supplies.

a v2 is the updated v1.3.; neither of which have the separate power supplies.

then there is the really big boy, the HE-833 (without any numbers or Mk designations).

it's all here including USA pricing---

http://www.covenantaudio.com/products.html

scroll down for pictures and descriptions of the current line-up. at the top of the page is a description of a re-furbished v1.3 but it's no longer a current model.

Thanks Mike. It is now more clear for me - the Wavac designations are not simple. You are lucky in the US - just found a pair of WAVAC Audio HE-833 v1.3 for 22k at Audiogon! At such price I would probably risk trying it. Then I could add - experience with serious SET in my audiophile CV ...

Mike Lavigne · Jun 17, 2017

microstrip said:
Thanks Mike. It is now more clear for me - the Wavac designations are not simple. You are lucky in the US - just found a pair of WAVAC Audio HE-833 v1.3 for 22k at Audiogon! At such price I would probably risk trying it. Then I could add - experience with serious SET in my audiophile CV ...

be careful as it could be 10 years old or older. that model changed to the v1.3 back in 2005-2006. and then there is the 115v <-> 230v issue....shipped to the EU.

however; it is one SET with the ability to control a real world speaker and it has slam. there is a good review by David Robinson of Positive-Feedback Online who loved it. he had previously reviewed the earliest version of the HE-833 a few years prior.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue21/wavac.htm

microstrip · Jun 17, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
be careful as it could be 10 years old or older. that model changed to the v1.3 back in 2005-2006. and then there is the 115v <-> 230v issue....shipped to the EU.

however; it is one SET with the ability to control a real world speaker and it has slam. there is a good review by David Robinson of Positive-Feedback Online who loved it. he had previously reviewed the earliest version of the HE-833 a few years prior.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue21/wavac.htm

No issue, the Atlantic ocean and customs will force me to keep wise ... Buying such used amplifiers can be a nightmare - it is a lot of paperwork for the seller, and if by chance there is no CE mark on it we risk a several month long process and lots of money to get it from the customs.

Audiocrack · Jun 17, 2017

microstrip said:
Sorry, what is your current preamplfier and amplifier?

Kondo m1000 mk 1 preamp and Kondo Gakuoh single ended poweramps.

What SET amplifiers have Realistic Midrange Magic AND have the Great BASS? Rock your Horns!

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