What is it about the bass, that it becomes so robust with after-market cords and conditioners?

microstrip · Mar 12, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
hey, I recall my own exact interlude; in 2005 where I bought a pair (2 sets) of $34k list price ($64k!!!! list price) TA Opus MM speaker cables for bi-amping my VR9SE's with a pair of dart 108 stereo amps. seemed like a fun thing to do at the time. I was throwing money at the system instead of understanding the room and related issues.

of course; looking back I had much to learn and a long way to go......but at that time I was living large.

My own experience with Opus cables - we should not think about throwing in a speaker cable in a system unless you have a source Opus cable. Many people become disappointed with network cables because they do not follow manufacturer rules and mix cables using them like tone controls as you previously said. I have used Transparent Audio cables with great success in different systems, but always using complete looms properly tuned. In my case it was not fun, it was success and enjoyment.

Using them with Dartzeel was surely an adventure, as their equipment is optimized for proprietary cables.

RogerD · Mar 12, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
yes, but the Tripoint brings more than just less noise. it adds coherence and pace and enhanced musical flow. less distortion and possibly more phase coherent. something locks in.

it's a punch in the nose with undeniable musical goodness.

the Entreq does similar things in some spots, but is less profound by many degrees (and cheaper by those same degrees).

Now this is my experience.....

it adds coherence and pace and enhanced musical flow. less distortion and possibly more phase coherent. something locks in.

This is all the characteristics of less noise....incredible clarity,powerful bass with focused energy,chiseled solid imaging,and very dense saturation. The Tripoint is engineered to earth ground,the Entreq uses a different approach. I would expect the Tripoint to be more efficient.

microstrip · Mar 12, 2017

bonzo75 said:
(...) So the only way to scratch the audiophile itch is to buy a couple of cables in the used market. (...)

I agree with you it is the best way of reaching disappointment after some time and the initial enthusiasm. People buy isolated cables at high discount prices, and never assemble or test complete or coherent looms because they get used to the nice prices and the used market is mobile. I was guilty of this practice more than once, but managed to deal with it. I bought a set of the great sounding Crystal Dreamline cables used at a nice price, but as the complementary pairs did not show at the usual sites I had to buy all the others from our distributor at new price ...

BTW, buyers should be careful with chinese origin counterfeit cables in the used market - although they are easily identified if you have experience with the originals, they really look similar ...

microstrip · Mar 12, 2017

RogerD said:
Now this is my experience.....

This is all the characteristics of less noise....incredible clarity,powerful bass with focused energy,chiseled solid imaging,and very dense saturation. The Tripoint is engineered to earth ground,the Entreq uses a different approach. I would expect the Tripoint to be more efficient.

Although completely OT, I would like to have your opinion on a subject - why not just having battery powered devices? It would solve 99% of the noise issues we are addressing.

Mike Lavigne · Mar 12, 2017

microstrip said:
Although completely OT, I would like to have your opinion on a subject - why not just having battery powered devices? It would solve 99% of the noise issues we are addressing.

yet......attaching the Tripoint Thor grounding cable to my battery powered dart 18ns preamp made easily the most significant difference of any one grounding cable connection. of course, the preamp is the hub of the system......so hard to view it by itself.

and yes, we have taken this way OT. but any cable thread is by definition not a well confined topic anyway.

amirm · Mar 12, 2017

RogerD said:
Now this is my experience.....

This is all the characteristics of less noise....incredible clarity,powerful bass with focused energy,chiseled solid imaging,and very dense saturation. The Tripoint is engineered to earth ground,the Entreq uses a different approach. I would expect the Tripoint to be more efficient.

And this is my experience: I have both measured and listened to Entreq. It doesn't do any of the things you say. It actually does the opposite as the physics predict. And on listening tests it does absolutely nothing.

But carry on with unverified hypotheses

.

RogerD · Mar 12, 2017

microstrip said:
Although completely OT, I would like to have your opinion on a subject - why not just having battery powered devices? It would solve 99% of the noise issues we are addressing.

No not really. Because what cables do not address fully is the EMI that the components produce. Anything that current flows through will produce current noise. So even if you use a battery powered preamp,it will still benefit from a larger ground pathway. Now if a amplifier has a well engineered internal ground scheme,it will sound better,but in my experience "current noise" is a very deep hole. Noise levels can produce many many many veils or layers to be revealed or eradicated.

RogerD · Mar 12, 2017

amirm said:
And this is my experience: I have both measured and listened to Entreq. It doesn't do any of the things you say. It actually does the opposite as the physics predict. And on listening tests it does absolutely nothing.

But carry on with unverified hypotheses .

Personal attack removed. Another violation of the WBF Terms of Service will result in disciplinary action.

amirm · Mar 12, 2017

RogerD said:
No not really. Because what cables do not address fully is the EMI that the components produce.

I recently did a test for my son. He wanted to see if a cell phone running 3-D benchmarks would leak measureable amount of radiation as to disturb audio. I took the cheapest, thinnest RCA cable I had (some generic one that came with some AV gear), and measured the impact using my Audio Precision analyzer. We then put the phone directly on the cable, trying both sides. In neither orientation did it make any impact whatsoever in the measurements.

Anything that current flows through will produce current noise. So even if you use a battery powered preamp,it will still benefit from a larger ground pathway. Now if a amplifier has a well engineered internal ground scheme,it will sound better,but in my experience "current noise" is a very deep hole. Noise levels can produce many many many veils or layers to be revealed or eradicated.

Noise can readily be measured. The above instrument has internal noise level that is well below any audio gear I throw at it yet itself has a generic AC cable. And the RCA interconnects are random ones. Do you have an explanation of how it is able to produce this level of performance?

thedudeabides · Mar 12, 2017

RogerD said:
For a so called expert you are truly a ignorant *******! Get the **** out of here!

Don't hold your breath. Amir has one single purpose for posting on this forum as underscored by your post.

I really do wonder why he keeps coming to the party as an uninvited guest.

Leif S · Mar 12, 2017

thedudeabides said:
Don't hold your breath. Amir has one single purpose for posting on this forum as underscored by your post.

I really do wonder why he keeps coming to the party as an uninvited guest.

Because he has his own forum and he seems to enjoy telling everyone here at WBF they are wrong.

thedudeabides · Mar 12, 2017

It begs the following question. Do any WBF members visit his site and try to undermine comments made by Amir?

If so, that would be one explanation of his apparent need to be a troll on this site.

PS: If not, it may be "ego" driven with all its associated personality traits.

bonzo75 · Mar 12, 2017

microstrip said:
I agree with you it is the best way of reaching disappointment after some time and the initial enthusiasm. People buy isolated cables at high discount prices, and never assemble or test complete or coherent looms because they get used to the nice prices and the used market is mobile. I was guilty of this practice more than once, but managed to deal with it. I bought a set of the great sounding Crystal Dreamline cables used at a nice price, but as the complementary pairs did not show at the usual sites I had to buy all the others from our distributor at new price ...

BTW, buyers should be careful with chinese origin counterfeit cables in the used market - although they are easily identified if you have experience with the originals, they really look similar ...

Hi I have had/heard cable looms. Overrated.

Anyway, my opinion aside, the jury is still out if one needs an entire loom, only the same signal loom with power cables differing, and within that do you need same power cables or you could have different ones.

On the shark there was a thread where people shared opinions on the above and there was no consensus, which ime has more to do with individual systems and cable colors.

One or two Tara power cables can be great but too many will darken the system, and their signal cables don't ameliorate that to justify addition. Instead of looms you will need to voice by ear, add oomph where required, warmth when necessary, etc. Best is to get neutral cable loom, if you find one, that seems to add nothing.

It's a bit like pre and power. Safe to buy the two from the same company, but if you carefully match you could better that in some cases, though not all.

amirm · Mar 12, 2017

treitz3 said:
I'll say this once and once only. For 10K, I need to know what the test parameters are. If Amir is serious, I'm willing to take him up on the challenge.....just need to know what the *actual* parameters are up front.

The debate has gone on and on for decades, this is undisputed.

I trust my ears, this is also undisputed.

If we can use Steve's system, his cables (Masterbuilt) versus CC or whatever....AND IF Steve is up to this, I'm game. No joke.

If I can tell the change between a lesser system and mine and if I can tell the change between my system and others? I damned sure can tell the difference between my system and Steve's, even though I have not heard his system before. So put up or give it up.

End of story. No further changes, period. 10K.

Tom

Hi Tom. The offer is serious. I have to say I am most impressed that you stepped forward. I have yet to see anyone else wanting to do so despite hearing night and day differences in every tweak they do.

The issue is that I have to be there to administer the test and that would be expense and time on my part. Should it demonstrate that you can't hear the difference, folks here would just dismiss it as you not having good ears and no value would come out of it. I made the offer to Steve and Leif because if the two of them can't hear the difference, then it will make people take notice.

So let me think about it and see if there is a way I can still make this work. And again, thank you for accepting the challenge.

For now, you can run a version of the same test I would be conducting. Take two power cords and plug them into the same outlet. Run the parallel to the back of the gear and put a towel over the end so that it is not visible which one is plugged into the gear. Now for a week, have a loved one once a day when you are not there, either change or not change which cable is connected to the audio equipment and make a written note. You then listen to your system during that day/night and you too make a record of which cord you think is connected. At the end of the week, compare the two scorecards. If you do this correctly, I am confident at that time it would obviate the need for me to come there.

amirm · Mar 12, 2017

thedudeabides said:
It begs the following question. Do any WBF members visit his site and try to undermine comments made by Amir?

If so, that would be one explanation of his apparent need to be a troll on this site.

PS: If not, it may be "ego" driven with all its associated personality traits.

We have plenty of members in common between ASR Forum and WBF. And lots more unregistered visitors. For the most part they are very professional but a few are the exception. Here is one of the posts from RogerD:

If you read the next page you see that he was treated with respect regardless.

This hobby is not worth getting down to that level regardless of how strongly you feel. Get control of your emotion and think whether your post adds anything constructive to knowledge base of the forum. That is what drove me to fight objectivists for a decade. And what drives me to post otherwise here.

Leif S · Mar 12, 2017

amirm said:
Hi Tom. The offer is serious. I have to say I am most impressed that you stepped forward. I have yet to see anyone else wanting to do so despite hearing night and day differences in every tweak they do.

The issue is that I have to be there to administer the test and that would be expense and time on my part. Should it demonstrate that you can't hear the difference, folks here would just dismiss it as you not having good ears and no value would come out of it. I made the offer to Steve and Leif because if the two of them can't hear the difference, then it will make people take notice.

So let me think about it and see if there is a way I can still make this work. And again, thank you for accepting the challenge.

For now, you can run a version of the same test I would be conducting. Take two power cords and plug them into the same outlet. Run the parallel to the back of the gear and put a towel over the end so that it is not visible which one is plugged into the gear. Now for a week, have a loved one once a day when you are not there, either change or not change which cable is connected to the audio equipment and make a written note. You then listen to your system during that day/night and you too make a record of which cord you think is connected. At the end of the week, compare the two scorecards. If you do this correctly, I am confident at that time it would obviate the need for me to come there.

So when you eyes are closed and you can't see what cables are hooked up, you listen to the music and as you move your head side to side you notice that the right and left speakers becomes obvious. When the MB Ultra cables go in, the sound stage stretches from side to side and deep. Move your head side to side and you realize there is very little change. We already did this at Steve's house. Take his money Tom lol. Tell him you want cash. You won't need your eyes because your ears will see it crystal clear.

Hey Amir.....you want to talk about respect!!! You did everything you could to try to discredit MasterBuilt, then when MB said put up proof or shut up basically, you had nowhere to go, and not even so much of an apology from you or a statement that this may be above your understanding. Someone take his money please. Then as Amir says people will take notice.

amirm · Mar 12, 2017

Leif S said:
So when you eyes are closed and you can't see what cables are hooked up, you listen to the music and as you move your head side to side you notice that the right and left speakers becomes obvious. When the MB Ultra cables go in, the sound stage stretches from side to side and deep. Move your head side to side and you realize there is very little change. We already did this at Steve's house. Take his money Tom lol. Tell him you want cash. You won't need your eyes because your ears will see it crystal clear.

I like to see a show of hands who believes cables can do this and why.

treitz3 · Mar 12, 2017

I don't know why (nor do I care to know why) and there is no "belief" whatsoever. Lief's observations mimic mine and on different systems nonetheless.

Tom

Leif S · Mar 12, 2017

amirm said:
I like to see a show of hands who believes cables can do this and why.

I give up. Apparently you haven't paid any attention to what people are saying about the MB cables or other cables for that matter. Your wasting my time.

amirm · Mar 12, 2017

Leif S said:
I give up. Apparently you haven't paid any attention to what people are saying about the MB cables or other cables for that matter. Your wasting my time.

Tom just said he hears the same effect using different cables. What is your explanation of that? Is he right or wrong?

What is it about the bass, that it becomes so robust with after-market cords and conditioners?

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