Shunyata DENALI

Bobvin · Sep 29, 2016

GrantS said:
From our point of view, whether in audio, studio or medical, if you run dedicated lines correctly-- meaning equidistant runs of wire, same gauge, run on the same phase on the panel, 20A breakers instead of 15, you will experience superior performance 100% of the time.

Caelin and I are the same exact listeners. It's all about timing, dynamics and 3rd order harmonic decay. "From our perspective", you cannot get that from using chokes, coils. regenerators, transformers, voltage regulators or reactive devices that fight the power supplies in electronics. You could call us passive-ists. We like special alloys --special torque wrench settings for connectors, special solid copper connectors that match all the other copper in the electrical chain for symmetry, cryogenic tanks. We spend mad money on dynamic current pass through--because that reduces noise in and of itself and increases "timing" and dynamics in sound.

Audio systems are all about peak current (excepting digital architecture like routers, NAS, Transports, Servers etc). Amps especially--they pull extremely hard on a line and they kick back about the same amount of noise as digital products do. SO--- would you rather have three 20A breakers that separate mono blocks and offer the system 60A of distributed current across three lines--isolating high-current from sources, or a single 15A or 20A line that puts everything on the same line, competing for peak current and all talking to one another in terms of noise?

Nothing is perfect and we all have unique systems and not all of us can break out separate lines for amps--but if you can, you should. Then I get the questions; well if I do all that and isolate my components on separate lines, I probably don't need your products or I can spend less? The answer in every case is -- the more fine-tuned your power is, the more difference our products make. Disorganized power systems lead to disorganized results. It's one thing to mix and match signal cables for "flavor". Power is different, more black and white, right or wrong. I've been doing this long enough now and traveled into every venue you could imagine that depends on resolution of fine detail, whether in studio or medical imaging, to know that we do power/electrical correctly. Not just in product development (7 patents), but in the basic set up of an electrical system.

Best regards,

Grant

My big remodel begins in a couple weeks. I currently have 2 dedicated 20amp, 10 gauge lines of equal length. I am adding two more. The existing will serve my amp(s) and the new will serve my source components and computer/server. Do you see a problem with the two new lines being different length than the existing two lines? Or should I have the existing rewired so all the dedicated lines are same length? (the new lines just need more wire to reach the outlet location vs. the others)

CGabriel · Sep 29, 2016

Bobvin said:
My big remodel begins in a couple weeks. I currently have 2 dedicated 20amp, 10 gauge lines of equal length. I am adding two more. The existing will serve my amp(s) and the new will serve my source components and computer/server. Do you see a problem with the two new lines being different length than the existing two lines? Or should I have the existing rewired so all the dedicated lines are same length? (the new lines just need more wire to reach the outlet location vs. the others)

Ground loops are a real problem. You really don't think about it until you get the problem. Then, it can be a bear to resolve. The MOST common way to create a ground loop problem is by installing multiple dedicated lines. You think you are doing something good for the performance of your system - but as it is with many things, the more complexity you add to a system, the more likely you will have unforeseen side-effects.

When doing a new installation I usually recommend a maximum of two dedicated lines be installed. One for the source components and one for the amp(s). What is most important, no matter how many lines you install, is to over-rate the dedicated lines and pay particular attention to wire gauge, conduit, outlets and the breaker in the electrical panel. If you have a simple system (3-4 components) and don't have massive power amplifiers, one dedicated line is sufficient when done correctly.

Only when you have massive or multiple amplifiers (home theater) do I recommend more than 2 dedicated lines. There are some amps like PASS, Macintosh, Boulder and some class A amps that pull very high current loads and MUST have seperate dedicated lines to perform at their true potential.

If you are using solid state amps with truly balanced type inputs and outputs, you will not usually have any problems even with multiple dedicated lines. And if you do have the problem with this configuration it is easy to fix.

The problem most commonly occurs when using single-ended interfaces to connect amplifiers that are NOT on the same circuit as the source components. JFYI, all RCA type connections are single-ended and even many XLR type connections are actually single-ended not true balanced connections. And the problem is more often found when the amplifiers are tube types.

Just to be clear about this: there are many other causes of ground loops even if you only have a single dedicated line. So this is not meant to be a comprehensive discussion on ground loops. This is about dedicated lines and why you may NOT want to put in too many of them. And when you do - pay attention to the details.

Ground loops are caused by differential currents running through the ground wire (return) in the interconnects. There will be a voltage difference between the signal grounds between any two components. You can easily measure this with a simple volt meter. When different dedicated lines are installed, there can be a difference in potential (voltage) from one ground connection to the other relatively. The best way to avoid this is to ensure that the impedance of the ground connections are the same. This means using the same type and gauge of wire, the same length, no splices, no junction boxes, the same outlet type and ensuring good reliable connections in the electrical panel. And the electrician should not coil excess wire in the wall! It is not just about the length of the wire - it is total impedance that is important.

MadFloyd · Sep 29, 2016

My system is a good example of what can go wrong with multiple lines.

I had 2 new dedicated circuits installed for my Pass amps. Both were 20amp. Unfortunately I didn't know about the equal length runs (nor did my electrician). It doesn't seem to affect me when all my sources are balanced - and runs from the pre to the amps are balanced, but if I attach a single ended source (or use single ended cabling anywhere), I get a massive hum. However, if I plug both my amps into 1 of the 2 dedicated lines, the hum goes away.

Bobvin · Sep 29, 2016

My fantasy has always been to use a pair of monoblock amps, I've just never got to that point yet. But my system has evolved much over the last several years. AudioResearch is, to my knowledge fully balanced, and I run balanced from phono-pre (Einstein) to ARC REF10 pre to ARC Ref75 amp, and my DAC8 runs balanced cables to the pre. I am waiting with baited breath for the announcement of new ARC monoblock amps using KT150 tubes but with newer design, similar to GS150 with exposed tubes. It seems the next generation of ARC REF amps should be due in the next year or two, I expect the design will be the newer look. Maybe they'll tap a little more juice from the KT150s and offer a 300 or 400w amp. While my Alexias sing along quite nicely with the REF75, I've heard them with much more powerful amps and the sound seems somehow more anchored with more power.

So, since the room is in remodel mode, I'd expected to have a couple outlets in the front of the room, one for each monoblock, then as described previously a dedicated line for source hardware. I also imagined separating out the noise of the computer/server and its power supply to a dedicated line would be beneficial, now, if I understand correctly this isn't necessary? I currently have the computer/monitor plugged into a non-dedicated circuit, the source gear on one of the dedicated lines, the amp on the other.

My electrical plan includes adding a new small sub-panel that I can independently ground, and have the dedicated lines come from that panel—of course circuits on same phase leg. Can anyone say if the small subpanel should be completely isolated with respect to the audio circuits? i.e. if I need a breaker for a set of lights in the room that will almost always be off can that be connected to the opposite phase leg without detriment?

microstrip · Sep 29, 2016

MadFloyd said:
My system is a good example of what can go wrong with multiple lines.

I had 2 new dedicated circuits installed for my Pass amps. Both were 20amp. Unfortunately I didn't know about the equal length runs (nor did my electrician). It doesn't seem to affect me when all my sources are balanced - and runs from the pre to the amps are balanced, but if I attach a single ended source (or use single ended cabling anywhere), I get a massive hum. However, if I plug both my amps into 1 of the 2 dedicated lines, the hum goes away.

Balanced inputs solve the hum problem if you have ground loops, but should be avoided as the rejection ratio of balanced inputs usually diminishes significantly when frequency increases - some of the very high frequency noise captured by the loop will still enter your system. Although not directly audible it can significantly affect sound quality.

The worst condition is having equipment producing high electrical noise in the central position and two dedicated power points with separate runs for the amplifiers at each side supplying mono-blocks - a giant loop with the noise generator in the center!

The equal length ground wires of a dedicated system should be twisted together to minimize the area of the wire loops. Unfortunately the electrical codes and the electromagnetic requirements sometimes disagree.

elescher · Sep 29, 2016

CGabriel said:
Ground loops are a real problem. You really don't think about it until you get the problem. Then, it can be a bear to resolve. The MOST common way to create a ground loop problem is by installing multiple dedicated lines. You think you are doing something good for the performance of your system - but as it is with many things, the more complexity you add to a system, the more likely you will have unforeseen side-effects.

When doing a new installation I usually recommend a maximum of two dedicated lines be installed. One for the source components and one for the amp(s). What is most important, no matter how many lines you install, is to over-rate the dedicated lines and pay particular attention to wire gauge, conduit, outlets and the breaker in the electrical panel. If you have a simple system (3-4 components) and don't have massive power amplifiers, one dedicated line is sufficient when done correctly.

Only when you have massive or multiple amplifiers (home theater) do I recommend more than 2 dedicated lines. There are some amps like PASS, Macintosh, Boulder and some class A amps that pull very high current loads and MUST have seperate dedicated lines to perform at their true potential.

If you are using solid state amps with truly balanced type inputs and outputs, you will not usually have any problems even with multiple dedicated lines. And if you do have the problem with this configuration it is easy to fix.

The problem most commonly occurs when using single-ended interfaces to connect amplifiers that are NOT on the same circuit as the source components. JFYI, all RCA type connections are single-ended and even many XLR type connections are actually single-ended not true balanced connections. And the problem is more often found when the amplifiers are tube types.

Just to be clear about this: there are many other causes of ground loops even if you only have a single dedicated line. So this is not meant to be a comprehensive discussion on ground loops. This is about dedicated lines and why you may NOT want to put in too many of them. And when you do - pay attention to the details.

Ground loops are caused by differential currents running through the ground wire (return) in the interconnects. There will be a voltage difference between the signal grounds between any two components. You can easily measure this with a simple volt meter. When different dedicated lines are installed, there can be a difference in potential (voltage) from one ground connection to the other relatively. The best way to avoid this is to ensure that the impedance of the ground connections are the same. This means using the same type and gauge of wire, the same length, no splices, no junction boxes, the same outlet type and ensuring good reliable connections in the electrical panel. And the electrician should not coil excess wire in the wall! It is not just about the length of the wire - it is total impedance that is important.

Big fan, big fan. What recommendation could you make for best circuit breakers in USA?

CGabriel · Sep 29, 2016

elescher said:
Big fan, big fan. What recommendation could you make for best circuit breakers in USA?

More important than what type would be "how old" and how often the circuit breaker has flipped. When in doubt - put a new breaker in for all circuits that power your system. They aren't that expensive. Have the electricians tighten all connections in the electrical panel. Copper is soft and building vibrations loosens the connections over time.

Hieukm · Oct 2, 2016

First post and i have a question:

I have a Torus AVR 20.Should i plug the denali into a isolation transformer like Torus or should i just plug it straight into the wall?

Should i just use Denali for front end and Torus for amps?

Alpinist · Oct 2, 2016

Hieukm said:
First post and i have a question:

I have a Torus AVR 20.Should i plug the denali into a isolation transformer like Torus or should i just plug it straight into the wall?

Should i just use Denali for front end and Torus for amps?

You can try it but I believe using the Denali for everything will yield better performance.

Ken

GrantS · Oct 2, 2016

Hi

From our perspective, everything should be about delivery of peak current to all components, even DAC's or CD players--#1. All pure digital components such servers, NAS, Transports, medical video - imaging systems are excepted from this edict, but all else should have the minimum AC connections in front of them--its also the reason well executed larger power cords make a difference over lesser cords. Also, if you add multiple devices you are altering the way the component power supplies function and likely getting in the way of the power-supplies own condition system. We design to avoid reactance and allow the power supply to not "see" any opposing capacitive or inductive reactance. The way Caelin designs and the way transformer products are designed are in opposite camps.

It may work perfectly to mix and match interconnect and speaker cable products, but I think that is dangerous too if you change components after finding a good fit with different cables.

Its our opinion that power systems should be kept very simple, direct (and well isolated) but only after you have maximized your system's direct power connections and minimized the reactance of the system.

Our power systems have massive, measurable noise isolation but we do that without interfering with instantaneous current or interfering with components on-board power conditioning. Any connection you "add" in front of analog output devices i.e.. Amps, Pre-amps, DAC's phono preamps will noticeably affect timing and dynamics of a system in a negative way.

I hope this helps explain our POV.

Best regards,

Grant

Hieukm · Oct 2, 2016

GrantS said:
Hi

From our perspective, everything should be about delivery of peak current to all components, even DAC's or CD players--#1. All pure digital components such servers, NAS, Transports, medical video - imaging systems are excepted from this edict, but all else should have the minimum AC connections in front of them--its also the reason well executed larger power cords make a difference over lesser cords. Also, if you add multiple devices you are altering the way the component power supplies function and likely getting in the way of the power-supplies own condition system. We design to avoid reactance and allow the power supply to not "see" any opposing capacitive or inductive reactance. The way Caelin designs and the way transformer products are designed are in opposite camps.

It may work perfectly to mix and match interconnect and speaker cable products, but I think that is dangerous too if you change components after finding a good fit with different cables.

Its our opinion that power systems should be kept very simple, direct (and well isolated) but only after you have maximized your system's direct power connections and minimized the reactance of the system.

Our power systems have massive, measurable noise isolation but we do that without interfering with instantaneous current or interfering with components on-board power conditioning. Any connection you "add" in front of analog output devices i.e.. Amps, Pre-amps, DAC's phono preamps will noticeably affect timing and dynamics of a system in a negative way.

I hope this helps explain our POV.

Best regards,

Grant

Thank you. It is very clear and informative.

The reason i was curious was from someone comment about plugging the triton v2 into a Torus yield better performance. I have also seen better performance from equipment plugged into furutech power distributor plugged into Torus.

GrantS · Oct 2, 2016

Hieukm said:
Thank you. It is very clear and informative.

The reason i was curious was from someone comment about plugging the triton v2 into a Torus yield better performance. I have also seen better performance from equipment plugged into furutech power distributor plugged into Torus.

Thank you for the reply.

It's true that there may be people that listen differently and some may not favor timing and dynamics over noise-reduction. PS-Audio built a large market on a noise-reduction-first principle, but with added heat, chassis noise and reduced peak-current once a load is applied, we feel our passive route is the better choice. Caelin and I got totgether 17 years ago because we listen the same way, for timing dynamics and the natural flow of music first. Our products ability to effect noise-reduction is at an elite level, but we have a clear design point of view than is different than the majority of companies. I've collected feedback from customers for many years, so I base our suggestions on that feedback. If you improve micro-to-macro dynamics, that really does affect noise reduction in a positive way as well.

There were two instances (extreme) that I clearly remember. One was a gentleman who called me to complain about a "hum" in his system after adding a Triton. I went over ground loop and cabling issues for a half hour and was about to give up, when he shared almost as an after thought, that the Triton was plugged into a PS Audio Power Plant which was then plugged into a Richard Gray by the wall.

Another customer was about to return his Hydra after a week of trial and error and many phone calls with me asking system questions. I asked what he would use instead and that's when he told me he still had his Richard Gray into the wall and had been plugging the Hydra into the Richard Gray.

Out came the extra products and up went performance, dramatically. I have a dozen stories like that in many contexts, most reference style systems where a customer thought more power products would be better. There may be an example or two where some customer prefers adding and stacking power distributors and adding connections in front of his system or amps. My experience runs the opposite direction over hundreds and hundreds of systems + trade shows where that was attempted by other manufacturers.

As we refined our craft, especially with Triton v2 or Denali, I don't think we will hear that extra boxes are better very often if at all--if people compare direct to multiple boxes.

Best regards,

Grant
Shunyata Research

caesar · Oct 2, 2016

Seems like a great product, but why does a sigma cord cost more than the 2000t model/ almost as much as the 6000 rectangular model?

Is this a matter of audiophile luxury pricing (nothing wrong with that , if this is the case) or is there an underlying economic logic behind this?

CGabriel · Oct 2, 2016

Caesar, I created a new thread for your question since it is off topic here and it will likely create a 10,000 post S*** storm.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?21591-Audiophile-pricing

caesar said:
Seems like a great product, but why does a sigma cord cost more than the 2000t model/ almost as much as the 6000 rectangular model?

Is this a matter of audiophile luxury pricing (nothing wrong with that , if this is the case) or is there an underlying economic logic behind this?

MadFloyd · Oct 4, 2016

I received a Denali 2000T yesterday to audition (along with a 20amp Alpha HC cable).

I was very impressed with the build quality of the unit. Unfortunately it wouldn't accept my 2 power cables - the outlets on the Denali have a casing around them that restricts the cable circumference that it can accommodate (either that or the outlets are too close together, I'm not sure). I was very sad to discover this as I've been excited about trying the Denali for a few months.

I then looked into seeing if the casing was removable - and while it looks like it might be, it's fastened with a rivet instead of a screw (or so it appears).

So just a word of caution for folks that have non-Shunyata power cables (e.g. with Furutech connectors); your power cables might not fit in the Denali.

A question for Grant or Caelin: will a Denali 2000T used on non high current devices give me any idea how a 6000 might perform on my preamp and sources? I use Shunyata cables there so at least I know they will fit!

still-one · Oct 4, 2016

MadFloyd said:
I received a Denali 2000T yesterday to audition (along with a 20amp Alpha HC cable).

I was very impressed with the build quality of the unit. Unfortunately it wouldn't accept my 2 power cables - the outlets on the Denali have a casing around them that restricts the cable circumference that it can accommodate (either that or the outlets are too close together, I'm not sure). I was very sad to discover this as I've been excited about trying the Denali for a few months.

I then looked into seeing if the casing was removable - and while it looks like it might be, it's fastened with a rivet instead of a screw (or so it appears).

So just a word of caution for folks that have non-Shunyata power cables (e.g. with Furutech connectors); your power cables might not fit in the Denali.

A question for Grant or Caelin: will a Denali 2000T used on non high current devices give me any idea how a 6000 might perform on my preamp and sources? I use Shunyata cables there so at least I know they will fit!

I have no issues with Transparent Power Cords fitting into my 6000T. Your connectors must be huge.

CGabriel · Oct 4, 2016

MadFloyd said:
I received a Denali 2000T yesterday to audition (along with a 20amp Alpha HC cable).

I was very impressed with the build quality of the unit. Unfortunately it wouldn't accept my 2 power cables - the outlets on the Denali have a casing around them that restricts the cable circumference that it can accommodate (either that or the outlets are too close together, I'm not sure). I was very sad to discover this as I've been excited about trying the Denali for a few months.

I then looked into seeing if the casing was removable - and while it looks like it might be, it's fastened with a rivet instead of a screw (or so it appears).

So just a word of caution for folks that have non-Shunyata power cables (e.g. with Furutech connectors); your power cables might not fit in the Denali.

A question for Grant or Caelin: will a Denali 2000T used on non high current devices give me any idea how a 6000 might perform on my preamp and sources? I use Shunyata cables there so at least I know they will fit!

First, the Cable Cradle was designed to be removable. It uses a hex head #6 bit.

Shunyata power cable connectors are the "maximum" allowable diameter that is possible without two adjacent cables rubbing together. The outlets are not too close together since they are standard NEMA specification outlets. If you have cables with connectors larger in diameter then they are out of spec and will rub together when two are plugged into any standard US duplex outlet. When we designed the Cable Cradle we knew that some of these oversized connectors existed so we made the cradle removable. Given the huge advantage provided by the Cable Cradle I, personally, would get rid of the oversized cables.

The Denali D2000/T will work fine on any component. However, the D2000 does not have the same level of CCI (component to component isolation) as the Z1 and Z2 outlets in the D6000 meaning that the D6000 would perform better than the D2000 with source components. The D2000 was built specifically for amplifiers, projectors and other very high current components.

MadFloyd · Oct 4, 2016

CGabriel said:
First, the Cable Cradle was designed to be removable. It uses a hex head #6 bit.

Shunyata power cable connectors are the "maximum" allowable diameter that is possible without two adjacent cables rubbing together. The outlets are not too close together since they are standard NEMA specification outlets. If you have cables with connectors larger in diameter then they are out of spec and will rub together when two are plugged into any standard US duplex outlet. When we designed the Cable Cradle we knew that some of these oversized connectors existed so we made the cradle removable. Given the huge advantage provided by the Cable Cradle I, personally, would get rid of the oversized cables.

The Denali D2000/T will work fine on any component. However, the D2000 does not have the same level of CCI (component to component isolation) as the Z1 and Z2 outlets in the D6000 meaning that the D6000 would perform better than the D2000 with source components. The D2000 was built specifically for amplifiers, projectors and other very high current components.

Thanks, Caelin! Good to know that it wasn't a rivet I was seeing. I will also try another brand of power cable.

CGabriel · Oct 4, 2016

AUDIOSTREAM Review of DENALI Series

AudioStream, Steve Plaskin, has just released a very comprehensive review of the DENALI Series power conditioners including the D6000 Tower, D6000 Shelf mount, and the D2000 Tower.

Enjoy reading!

http://www.audiostream.com/content/shunyata-research-denali-series#ii9thPQ0irOypS8V.97

notme · Oct 12, 2016

Why is a different switch used on the D6000/T vs. D6000/S? Other than one being glaring white and the other nice blending black, are there any technical differences between the switches? Thanks.

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