It’s an analog world, or is it?

DonH50

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<Precursor to the sampling theory thread.>

We all know the real world is analog, right? All nice and smooth, no nasty discontinuities, no discrete steps in anything we see, touch, smell, taste, and most certainly hear! As an analog design engineer, even one designing data converters for a living, I know that better than most.

Or do I? No, I’m not going into quantum physics (I am a hairy-knuckled engineer, not a real scientist, after all). I went through pre-med, once upon a time, before deciding I preferred engineering. (Truth be told, I had simply had enough of schooling for a while and couldn’t face more years of medical school. Nor, after working my way through as an undergrad, did I have the funding it would take). Shocking stuff, that physiology stuff… I learned that our senses are communicated to the brain through nerve impulses, impulses that are generated by (gasp!) discrete little individual sensors in our ears, tongues, eyes, nose, fingers… Impulses that are transmitted to the brain via small electrical charges across a chemical barrier, charges that occur in discrete, individual little packets. Omigosh, we are digital! :eek:

Well, not quite: our brain takes all those signals and makes them continuous so we never really perceive individual neurons firing. A bunch go off, the brain filters everything, and we see (hear, touch – you get the idea) the world as nice and smooth. Once things get too small, there are not enough sensor signals generated to pass our brain’s “I care” threshold, and we do not or cannot process them. With larger signals, our brain takes many individual impulses from many sensors, and creates a continuous world-view for us. Many small discrete samples nicely integrated into a convenient whole.

And, that is why digital audio works.

Yes, I am going to go further, but first I wanted to get past the idea that digital is not, or cannot be, as good as “analog”, because there ain’t no analog. (Cue tears now, I still don’t really believe it!) If the digital signal has enough resolution (bits) and is sampled fast enough, we won’t be able to tell if it is digital or analog. How many bits and how fast is, and probably always will be, debated, but digital as a concept is not inferior to analog. Implementation, well…

In fact, digital can be superior. Digital numbers don’t change with time and temperature like analog components, nor vary with power supply voltage. I can design (well, with a lot of help) a digital filter that does not corrupt the phase in the signal band, has virtually zero noise and incredible dynamic range, and rolls off so steep it would scare my Jeep. I can perform billions of calculations a second on a little chip that outperforms (in spades!) an analog signal processor 100 times or more its size, and work wonders unheard/unthought of ten, twenty, thirty or more years ago.

And yet, I still like analog… :) – Don (as my turntable gently weeps)

Next up: sampling and the digital realm.
 

Kal Rubinson

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Impulses that are transmitted to the brain via small electrical charges across a chemical barrier, charges that occur in discrete, individual little packets. Omigosh, we are digital! :eek:
Here we go again. This is simplistic. These may be definable quanta as they pass the synapse but, when their variable numbers are combined with variable transmembrane gradients, they result in infinitely variable (analog) voltage changes in the postsynaptic cell. Of course, the consequence of all the voltage changes then leads to the firing (or not) of all-or-none action potentials. These, of course, can be modulated at the next synapse so that they result in the release of a variable number of quanta. Da capo. Neither digital nor analog, imho.

Well, not quite: our brain takes all those signals and makes them continuous so we never really perceive individual neurons firing. A bunch go off, the brain filters everything, and we see (hear, touch – you get the idea) the world as nice and smooth.
True. The continuity of consciousness (for most of us) is a perception. It has to do with the various "clocks" in the brain that gate computational epochs. Now, that sounds digital to me.

Once things get too small, there are not enough sensor signals generated to pass our brain’s “I care” threshold, and we do not or cannot process them.
This, too, is simplistic. The threshold for salience, even on a conscious level, is variable with multiple parameters including, for example, context, experience, etc..

And, that is why digital audio works.
If you say so. ;)
 

DonH50

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Hey, I'm a simple guy! And no M.D. We (maybe just I) need a "tounge-in-cheek" emoticon, as that's how my post was meant to be taken. I am serious about the fact (maybe it's just an hypothesis) that, below a certain level (or above a certain resolution), we can no longer distinguish discrete quanta, and about digital filters being a lot closer to perfect than analog (within their range; in my day job, the circuits I work with are too fast to filter digitally at-speed). Of course, we have to get the signals to and from those digital filters... - Don
 

Kal Rubinson

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Hey, I'm a simple guy! And no M.D. We (maybe just I) need a "tounge-in-cheek" emoticon, as that's how my post was meant to be taken. I am serious about the fact (maybe it's just an hypothesis) that, below a certain level (or above a certain resolution), we can no longer distinguish discrete quanta, and about digital filters being a lot closer to perfect than analog (within their range; in my day job, the circuits I work with are too fast to filter digitally at-speed). Of course, we have to get the signals to and from those digital filters... - Don
Hey, I am on your side about digital and, once the resolution limits of transduction and perception are exceeded, we are as close to perfection as necessary. (After all, we filter the real world in the same way. However, I think that arguments about the analog or digital nature of the CNS are spurious in this effort.
 

DonH50

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Yeah, probably right, sorry. I was trying to joke my way out of writing the real thread since my free time this weekend got siphoned off by other things than sampling theory... In a manner of speaking; I had to work on a presentation for a DS ADC that I don't think is actually realizable in today's technology, but that's never stopped the marketing dept.
 

JackD201

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Kal Rubinson

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Interesting article. Not sure it dissproves Kal's assertion (most particularly that a discussion of the CNS is irrelevant to begin with), but I definitely need more astrocytes... :)

Interesting, yes, but a popularization of the issues with a few errors along the way. Glia are important in many ways.
 

JackD201

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I'm far from being a doctor of any kind and meant in no way to disprove anything Kal said. I've been doing research for a sci-fi story and I came across dark matter.
 

Kal Rubinson

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I'm far from being a doctor of any kind and meant in no way to disprove anything Kal said. I've been doing research for a sci-fi story and I came across dark matter.

I didn't mean to imply that there was objectionable in it for what it was.
 

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