Kharma Exquisite Extreme Grand install

Steve Williams said:
Mike

I am not understanding what you mean when you say the big Wilson speakers draw attention to themselves :confused:
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i did further edit my post above likely after your comment as when i re-read my post i felt i stated that point too strongly.

what i added was that i'm acknowledging that this character of the Kharma to not intrude on the music is a relative strength compared to the Wilson. not that the Wilson does not do that, but that the Kharma does it better. and it's just my opinion based on my exposure to big Wilsons, big Kharma's, and my overall previous experiences.

it's just my view of how things are as Lloyd asked me to express.

as far as my meaning of 'brought attention to itself' that is what i mean when the presentation i am hearing sounds like drivers and crossovers and cabinets and not just music. i still might like it alot, but it's not what i want to hear. it could be big and bold and exciting....but the more i listen the more i get distracted. and it's a relative thing.
 
Mike Lavigne said:
i did further edit my post above likely after your comment as when i re-read my post i felt i stated that point too strongly.

what i added was that i'm acknowledging that this character of the Kharma to not intrude on the music is a relative strength compared to the Wilson. not that the Wilson does not do that, but that the Kharma does it better. and it's just my opinion based on my exposure to big Wilsons, big Kharma's, and my overall previous experiences.

it's just my view of how things are as Lloyd asked me to express.

as far as my meaning of 'brought attention to itself' that is what i mean when the presentation i am hearing sounds like drivers and crossovers and cabinets and not just music. i still might like it alot, but it's not what i want to hear. it could be big and bold and exciting....but the more i listen the more i get distracted. and it's a relative thing.
Click to expand...

well to each our own Mike but I've owned big Wilson speakers for almost 15 years and never once heard driver sounds ,crossovers and cabinets (which BTW, I still don't understand what you mean). In fact your friend JT, when he was at my house a few years ago with Andreas said that he is normally not a Wilson and/or Lamm lover but what he heard that day was enough for him to make very positive comments (perhaps he was being polite) about what he heard and went so far in asking me if Dave Wilson has heard my system because he felt it was so good. Perhaps it was the amp. Who knows but I will again state that I have owned Wilson speakers for over 20 years, the last 15 being the big Wilson speakers and have never once experienced what you have. Perhaps it's my hearing ;)
 
Steve Williams said:
well to each our own Mike but I've owned big Wilson speakers for almost 15 years and never once heard driver sounds ,crossovers and cabinets (which BTW, I still don't understand what you mean). In fact your friend JT, when he was at my house a few years ago with Andreas said that he is normally not a Wilson and/or Lamm lover but what he heard that day was enough for him to make very positive comments (perhaps he was being polite) about what he heard and went so far in asking me if Dave Wilson has heard my system because he felt it was so good. Perhaps it was the amp. Who knows but I will again state that I have owned Wilson speakers for over 20 years, the last 15 being the big Wilson speakers and have never once experienced what you have. Perhaps it's my hearing ;)
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Steve,

i'm not being critical of big Wilsons. i like them alot. every speaker has it's relative strengths.

if you had Kharma Grand Exquisites (not these 'Extreme' Kharma's) in your room to compare directly with your X-2's you would hear differences. they would be subtle in most respects. i would guess on most music you would hear the way the crossover handles the music differently. if i had to bet i would expect that both would sound wonderful with your ML3's, but that there would be a bit more detail with the Wilsons, and a slight more of a disapearing act with the Kharma's, less a sense that they were there. the Wilson's would do that disappearing act too but not quite as good.

if you did not have both speakers in the same room at the same time it would not jump out at you.

so please don't over-react to what i'm saying. and it's just my opinion based on my expereince.
 
edorr said:
Created some spectacular fireworks with Graaf OTL 200 amps myself. Have been avaoiding tubes for power amplification like the plague ever since...
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Edorr,

You were playing with matches in an explosives store and are concluding that matches are dangerous. :) Graaf OTL 200were known for their poor reliability. It was not a problem of being tube, but poor implementation. And, when they were used with adequate speakers and working in proper conditions they sounded excellent - on par with best amplifier I have listened. It is why people insisted on using them, unhappily most of the time with inadequate speakers needing a lot of current.
 
Thanks for all the pictures Wizard :). Always love pics of set-ups
 
microstrip said:
Edorr,

You were playing with matches in an explosives store and are concluding that matches are dangerous. :) Graaf OTL 200were known for their poor reliability. It was not a problem of being tube, but poor implementation. And, when they were used with adequate speakers and working in proper conditions they sounded excellent - on par with best amplifier I have listened. It is why people insisted on using them, unhappily most of the time with inadequate speakers needing a lot of current.
Click to expand...

MOst things Italian are not known for realiability ..... Even if they were reliable I would have had to sell them. I had a newborn at the time, and they did not strike me as the safest devices to have a baby crawling around.....
 
Mike Lavigne said:
(...) i'm not being critical of big Wilsons. i like them alot. every speaker has it's relative strengths. (...)
so please don't over-react to what i'm saying. and it's just my opinion based on my expereince.
Click to expand...

Mike ,

I would say more - you are debating a concept that strongly depends on one's experience - a "disappearing" big speaker. If I had to rate my experiences they would be different from Steve's or yours.

But there is one aspect that I would like to add my 2 cents. Speakers do not disappear - whole systems disappear if they are excellently matched. Your simplified challenge of taking one speaker and inserting another to compare in the same room would not prove anything. I have listened to X2's and now the XLF disappearing to a degree that it is hard to imagine better, but the real winner in "disappearing" was a pair of Sonus Faber "The Sonus Faber" with some recordings. But the system that included the TSF was largely better and better matched than the previous ones. In this latter system each power cable cost more than I like to pay for my speaker cables ...
 
Mike Lavigne said:
Steve,

i'm not being critical of big Wilsons. i like them alot. every speaker has it's relative strengths.

if you had Kharma Grand Exquisites (not these 'Extreme' Kharma's) in your room to compare directly with your X-2's you would hear differences. they would be subtle in most respects. i would guess on most music you would hear the way the crossover handles the music differently. if i had to bet i would expect that both would sound wonderful with your ML3's, but that there would be a bit more detail with the Wilsons, and a slight more of a disapearing act with the Kharma's, less a sense that they were there. the Wilson's would do that disappearing act too but not quite as good.

if you did not have both speakers in the same room at the same time it would not jump out at you.

so please don't over-react to what i'm saying. and it's just my opinion based on my expereince.
Click to expand...

Mike, Thanks for your opinions and your taking the time to write it carefully and even to re-edit it. I respect your opinion. Ultimately, each of us must make up our own mind and retain our own convictions. I certainly do. That said, unless and until i can heard Kharmas for myself, it is interesting and helpful to read what other's think about foremost when they describe a piece of equipment. Now, i know what you think about them. That is helpful. Thanks.
 
Good to have a kharma thread since they are manufactured in breda ,about 90 K s from me , ive heard them quite a lot , been to the factory /showroom 2 times and spoke to charles van oosterum a few times , nice person
I like the brand cause its a no nonsense tech brand with exxelent material choice/manufacturing , besides the names of the speakers :D " PP"
Heard a lot of models ,very transparent / very spacious speaker /very large soundstage among other things , best integrated model in the line that i heard was the 1.3 diamond enigma ,it had also the best bass that i heard of a 11 inch woofer at any price , tube driven , i also like the model that mike lavigne had both with the earlier focal audiom tweeter as with the nowadays diamond cone

Rock solid housing construction ,... annoying factor removed !

Agree on the dissapearing act, it is a quality measurment , as if your brain instantly recognizes quality and stops correcting for anomalies , the better the speaker the better the act , i am not saying all dissapearing are good off course

The best speaker is a speaker that lets you accustom to it for 5 minutes and then you forget all about it
 
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Mike Lavigne said:
Steve,

i'm not being critical of big Wilsons. i like them alot. every speaker has it's relative strengths.

if you had Kharma Grand Exquisites (not these 'Extreme' Kharma's) in your room to compare directly with your X-2's you would hear differences. they would be subtle in most respects. i would guess on most music you would hear the way the crossover handles the music differently. if i had to bet i would expect that both would sound wonderful with your ML3's, but that there would be a bit more detail with the Wilsons, and a slight more of a disapearing act with the Kharma's, less a sense that they were there. the Wilson's would do that disappearing act too but not quite as good.

if you did not have both speakers in the same room at the same time it would not jump out at you.

so please don't over-react to what i'm saying. and it's just my opinion based on my expereince.
Click to expand...

Well, I might as well spill the beans here...after owning 4 sets of Wilson's (WP 6, 8's, Maxx 3 and currently 3's) I just ordered a pair of Rockport Technologies Altair 2's. Just like Mike is saying above, I to hear things that some speakers are doing better. The real test will be when they arrive in my room. I am pretty sure of some differences already like in transparency, timing and seamlessness. Again, I've had a long long love affair with Wilson and can easily live with my Maxx 3's. A lot more to post when they arrive in about 2-3 months...
 
jfrech said:
Well, I might as well spill the beans here...after owning 4 sets of Wilson's (WP 6, 8's, Maxx 3 and currently 3's) I just ordered a pair of Rockport Technologies Altair 2's. Just like Mike is saying above, I to hear things that some speakers are doing better. The real test will be when they arrive in my room. I am pretty sure of some differences already like in transparency, timing and seamlessness. Again, I've had a long long love affair with Wilson and can easily live with my Maxx 3's. A lot more to post when they arrive in about 2-3 months...
Click to expand...

Wow ... Big Congrats .. hope they reach you quick !!!
 
jfrech said:
Well, I might as well spill the beans here...after owning 4 sets of Wilson's (WP 6, 8's, Maxx 3 and currently 3's) I just ordered a pair of Rockport Technologies Altair 2's. Just like Mike is saying above, I to hear things that some speakers are doing better. The real test will be when they arrive in my room. I am pretty sure of some differences already like in transparency, timing and seamlessness. Again, I've had a long long love affair with Wilson and can easily live with my Maxx 3's. A lot more to post when they arrive in about 2-3 months...
Click to expand...

Fantastic news!!! I have heard Rockports a while ago, the older Merak Sheritan IIs, and was amazed at how well built they appeared, how natural they sounded in comparison to many newer speakers i was listening to in the system that day. Really, really impressed. I have heard that this generation of speakers was the beginning point of where Rockport really started to take off as a speaker designer...some had considered earlier models to be not as balanced...dont know why exactly. And a lot has happened since those speakers nearly 10-15 years now.

I will be hearing the Altairs this summer, and am very excited about it. They will be using Constellation amps and MSB as source. Will definitely post, but not before you do! Look forward to reading about how they compare with your Maxx3s...and if you have any insights now you wish to share...please indulge!
 
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microstrip said:
Mike ,

I would say more - you are debating a concept that strongly depends on one's experience - a "disappearing" big speaker. If I had to rate my experiences they would be different from Steve's or yours.

But there is one aspect that I would like to add my 2 cents. Speakers do not disappear - whole systems disappear if they are excellently matched. Your simplified challenge of taking one speaker and inserting another to compare in the same room would not prove anything. I have listened to X2's and now the XLF disappearing to a degree that it is hard to imagine better, but the real winner in "disappearing" was a pair of Sonus Faber "The Sonus Faber" with some recordings. But the system that included the TSF was largely better and better matched than the previous ones. In this latter system each power cable cost more than I like to pay for my speaker cables ...
Click to expand...

WOuld like to add my 0.02 Euro to this. I understand your insistence on the system approach but I would say that it begins with the speakers. Some large speakers, the old Magnepan for example would never entirely disappear it was in their DNA, I would venture to say the design had some flaws which would never help them project a small image, regardless of the electronics used and believe me I have heard them with anything from Monster Amp to OTL Tubes passing through SET. They have progressed to a point where the new Maggies, the .7 series can and will disappear with proper set-up. I do not share your point about electronics and the "disappearing" act , I know of some speakers that simply disappear inmost roonm with almost any electronics, the old Spica TC-50 were master of this disappearing act, regardless of electronics or front end.

As for Sonus Faber I have experienced the Electa Amator doing a strange "I-am-not-even-there-so-where-is-the-sound-coming-from?"but the sound was as big as any speakers had any right to be... To me one of the best Sonus Faber ever...
As for Wilson the X-2 works on small scale as well as any speaker large or small... heard it doing so with various electronics...
 
Housings such as kharma builds will surely help with the disappearing act , there are certain levels of disappearing:), with very good speakers you only hear music
IMO very good loudspeakers with relatively cheap amps , will still disappear in room , dont skip on speakers.
Only negative thing i found on this thread is that that building in china definetively needs an elevator:D
 
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great photos! is the owner using both the Vitus amps and the Kondo Kaguras? I also see Vitus and a few other choices pieces I think...
 
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