Kharma Exquisite Extreme Grand install

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,471
11,367
4,410
Mike

I am not understanding what you mean when you say the big Wilson speakers draw attention to themselves :confused:

i did further edit my post above likely after your comment as when i re-read my post i felt i stated that point too strongly.

what i added was that i'm acknowledging that this character of the Kharma to not intrude on the music is a relative strength compared to the Wilson. not that the Wilson does not do that, but that the Kharma does it better. and it's just my opinion based on my exposure to big Wilsons, big Kharma's, and my overall previous experiences.

it's just my view of how things are as Lloyd asked me to express.

as far as my meaning of 'brought attention to itself' that is what i mean when the presentation i am hearing sounds like drivers and crossovers and cabinets and not just music. i still might like it alot, but it's not what i want to hear. it could be big and bold and exciting....but the more i listen the more i get distracted. and it's a relative thing.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
i did further edit my post above likely after your comment as when i re-read my post i felt i stated that point too strongly.

what i added was that i'm acknowledging that this character of the Kharma to not intrude on the music is a relative strength compared to the Wilson. not that the Wilson does not do that, but that the Kharma does it better. and it's just my opinion based on my exposure to big Wilsons, big Kharma's, and my overall previous experiences.

it's just my view of how things are as Lloyd asked me to express.

as far as my meaning of 'brought attention to itself' that is what i mean when the presentation i am hearing sounds like drivers and crossovers and cabinets and not just music. i still might like it alot, but it's not what i want to hear. it could be big and bold and exciting....but the more i listen the more i get distracted. and it's a relative thing.

well to each our own Mike but I've owned big Wilson speakers for almost 15 years and never once heard driver sounds ,crossovers and cabinets (which BTW, I still don't understand what you mean). In fact your friend JT, when he was at my house a few years ago with Andreas said that he is normally not a Wilson and/or Lamm lover but what he heard that day was enough for him to make very positive comments (perhaps he was being polite) about what he heard and went so far in asking me if Dave Wilson has heard my system because he felt it was so good. Perhaps it was the amp. Who knows but I will again state that I have owned Wilson speakers for over 20 years, the last 15 being the big Wilson speakers and have never once experienced what you have. Perhaps it's my hearing ;)
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,471
11,367
4,410
well to each our own Mike but I've owned big Wilson speakers for almost 15 years and never once heard driver sounds ,crossovers and cabinets (which BTW, I still don't understand what you mean). In fact your friend JT, when he was at my house a few years ago with Andreas said that he is normally not a Wilson and/or Lamm lover but what he heard that day was enough for him to make very positive comments (perhaps he was being polite) about what he heard and went so far in asking me if Dave Wilson has heard my system because he felt it was so good. Perhaps it was the amp. Who knows but I will again state that I have owned Wilson speakers for over 20 years, the last 15 being the big Wilson speakers and have never once experienced what you have. Perhaps it's my hearing ;)

Steve,

i'm not being critical of big Wilsons. i like them alot. every speaker has it's relative strengths.

if you had Kharma Grand Exquisites (not these 'Extreme' Kharma's) in your room to compare directly with your X-2's you would hear differences. they would be subtle in most respects. i would guess on most music you would hear the way the crossover handles the music differently. if i had to bet i would expect that both would sound wonderful with your ML3's, but that there would be a bit more detail with the Wilsons, and a slight more of a disapearing act with the Kharma's, less a sense that they were there. the Wilson's would do that disappearing act too but not quite as good.

if you did not have both speakers in the same room at the same time it would not jump out at you.

so please don't over-react to what i'm saying. and it's just my opinion based on my expereince.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
Created some spectacular fireworks with Graaf OTL 200 amps myself. Have been avaoiding tubes for power amplification like the plague ever since...

Edorr,

You were playing with matches in an explosives store and are concluding that matches are dangerous. :) Graaf OTL 200were known for their poor reliability. It was not a problem of being tube, but poor implementation. And, when they were used with adequate speakers and working in proper conditions they sounded excellent - on par with best amplifier I have listened. It is why people insisted on using them, unhappily most of the time with inadequate speakers needing a lot of current.
 

nirodha

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2010
679
296
975
Thanks for all the pictures Wizard :). Always love pics of set-ups
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
14
36
Smyrna, GA
Edorr,

You were playing with matches in an explosives store and are concluding that matches are dangerous. :) Graaf OTL 200were known for their poor reliability. It was not a problem of being tube, but poor implementation. And, when they were used with adequate speakers and working in proper conditions they sounded excellent - on par with best amplifier I have listened. It is why people insisted on using them, unhappily most of the time with inadequate speakers needing a lot of current.

MOst things Italian are not known for realiability ..... Even if they were reliable I would have had to sell them. I had a newborn at the time, and they did not strike me as the safest devices to have a baby crawling around.....
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
(...) i'm not being critical of big Wilsons. i like them alot. every speaker has it's relative strengths. (...)
so please don't over-react to what i'm saying. and it's just my opinion based on my expereince.

Mike ,

I would say more - you are debating a concept that strongly depends on one's experience - a "disappearing" big speaker. If I had to rate my experiences they would be different from Steve's or yours.

But there is one aspect that I would like to add my 2 cents. Speakers do not disappear - whole systems disappear if they are excellently matched. Your simplified challenge of taking one speaker and inserting another to compare in the same room would not prove anything. I have listened to X2's and now the XLF disappearing to a degree that it is hard to imagine better, but the real winner in "disappearing" was a pair of Sonus Faber "The Sonus Faber" with some recordings. But the system that included the TSF was largely better and better matched than the previous ones. In this latter system each power cable cost more than I like to pay for my speaker cables ...
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
Steve,

i'm not being critical of big Wilsons. i like them alot. every speaker has it's relative strengths.

if you had Kharma Grand Exquisites (not these 'Extreme' Kharma's) in your room to compare directly with your X-2's you would hear differences. they would be subtle in most respects. i would guess on most music you would hear the way the crossover handles the music differently. if i had to bet i would expect that both would sound wonderful with your ML3's, but that there would be a bit more detail with the Wilsons, and a slight more of a disapearing act with the Kharma's, less a sense that they were there. the Wilson's would do that disappearing act too but not quite as good.

if you did not have both speakers in the same room at the same time it would not jump out at you.

so please don't over-react to what i'm saying. and it's just my opinion based on my expereince.

Mike, Thanks for your opinions and your taking the time to write it carefully and even to re-edit it. I respect your opinion. Ultimately, each of us must make up our own mind and retain our own convictions. I certainly do. That said, unless and until i can heard Kharmas for myself, it is interesting and helpful to read what other's think about foremost when they describe a piece of equipment. Now, i know what you think about them. That is helpful. Thanks.
 

andromedaaudio

VIP/Donor
Jan 23, 2011
8,354
2,731
1,400
Amsterdam holland
Good to have a kharma thread since they are manufactured in breda ,about 90 K s from me , ive heard them quite a lot , been to the factory /showroom 2 times and spoke to charles van oosterum a few times , nice person
I like the brand cause its a no nonsense tech brand with exxelent material choice/manufacturing , besides the names of the speakers :D " PP"
Heard a lot of models ,very transparent / very spacious speaker /very large soundstage among other things , best integrated model in the line that i heard was the 1.3 diamond enigma ,it had also the best bass that i heard of a 11 inch woofer at any price , tube driven , i also like the model that mike lavigne had both with the earlier focal audiom tweeter as with the nowadays diamond cone

Rock solid housing construction ,... annoying factor removed !

Agree on the dissapearing act, it is a quality measurment , as if your brain instantly recognizes quality and stops correcting for anomalies , the better the speaker the better the act , i am not saying all dissapearing are good off course

The best speaker is a speaker that lets you accustom to it for 5 minutes and then you forget all about it
 
Last edited:

jfrech

VIP/Donor
Sep 3, 2012
2,152
749
1,160
Austin
Steve,

i'm not being critical of big Wilsons. i like them alot. every speaker has it's relative strengths.

if you had Kharma Grand Exquisites (not these 'Extreme' Kharma's) in your room to compare directly with your X-2's you would hear differences. they would be subtle in most respects. i would guess on most music you would hear the way the crossover handles the music differently. if i had to bet i would expect that both would sound wonderful with your ML3's, but that there would be a bit more detail with the Wilsons, and a slight more of a disapearing act with the Kharma's, less a sense that they were there. the Wilson's would do that disappearing act too but not quite as good.

if you did not have both speakers in the same room at the same time it would not jump out at you.

so please don't over-react to what i'm saying. and it's just my opinion based on my expereince.

Well, I might as well spill the beans here...after owning 4 sets of Wilson's (WP 6, 8's, Maxx 3 and currently 3's) I just ordered a pair of Rockport Technologies Altair 2's. Just like Mike is saying above, I to hear things that some speakers are doing better. The real test will be when they arrive in my room. I am pretty sure of some differences already like in transparency, timing and seamlessness. Again, I've had a long long love affair with Wilson and can easily live with my Maxx 3's. A lot more to post when they arrive in about 2-3 months...
 

Peter Breuninger

[Industry Expert] Member Sponsor
Jul 20, 2010
1,231
4
0

Jazzhead

VIP/Donor
Aug 26, 2012
1,466
108
985
Well, I might as well spill the beans here...after owning 4 sets of Wilson's (WP 6, 8's, Maxx 3 and currently 3's) I just ordered a pair of Rockport Technologies Altair 2's. Just like Mike is saying above, I to hear things that some speakers are doing better. The real test will be when they arrive in my room. I am pretty sure of some differences already like in transparency, timing and seamlessness. Again, I've had a long long love affair with Wilson and can easily live with my Maxx 3's. A lot more to post when they arrive in about 2-3 months...

Wow ... Big Congrats .. hope they reach you quick !!!
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
Well, I might as well spill the beans here...after owning 4 sets of Wilson's (WP 6, 8's, Maxx 3 and currently 3's) I just ordered a pair of Rockport Technologies Altair 2's. Just like Mike is saying above, I to hear things that some speakers are doing better. The real test will be when they arrive in my room. I am pretty sure of some differences already like in transparency, timing and seamlessness. Again, I've had a long long love affair with Wilson and can easily live with my Maxx 3's. A lot more to post when they arrive in about 2-3 months...

Fantastic news!!! I have heard Rockports a while ago, the older Merak Sheritan IIs, and was amazed at how well built they appeared, how natural they sounded in comparison to many newer speakers i was listening to in the system that day. Really, really impressed. I have heard that this generation of speakers was the beginning point of where Rockport really started to take off as a speaker designer...some had considered earlier models to be not as balanced...dont know why exactly. And a lot has happened since those speakers nearly 10-15 years now.

I will be hearing the Altairs this summer, and am very excited about it. They will be using Constellation amps and MSB as source. Will definitely post, but not before you do! Look forward to reading about how they compare with your Maxx3s...and if you have any insights now you wish to share...please indulge!
 

Jazzhead

VIP/Donor
Aug 26, 2012
1,466
108
985
10732679_941209219242445_1032490412_o.jpg 10743868_941208992575801_867478299_o.jpg 10731273_941191062577594_198975739_o.jpg 10731366_941191035910930_342494151_o.jpg
 

Jazzhead

VIP/Donor
Aug 26, 2012
1,466
108
985
10581091_941210229242344_251441282_o.jpg 10704027_941213905908643_1066048770345285370_n.jpg 10743085_941210519242315_957918809_o.jpg 10743897_941210302575670_599451950_o.jpg
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,455
29
405
Mike ,

I would say more - you are debating a concept that strongly depends on one's experience - a "disappearing" big speaker. If I had to rate my experiences they would be different from Steve's or yours.

But there is one aspect that I would like to add my 2 cents. Speakers do not disappear - whole systems disappear if they are excellently matched. Your simplified challenge of taking one speaker and inserting another to compare in the same room would not prove anything. I have listened to X2's and now the XLF disappearing to a degree that it is hard to imagine better, but the real winner in "disappearing" was a pair of Sonus Faber "The Sonus Faber" with some recordings. But the system that included the TSF was largely better and better matched than the previous ones. In this latter system each power cable cost more than I like to pay for my speaker cables ...

WOuld like to add my 0.02 Euro to this. I understand your insistence on the system approach but I would say that it begins with the speakers. Some large speakers, the old Magnepan for example would never entirely disappear it was in their DNA, I would venture to say the design had some flaws which would never help them project a small image, regardless of the electronics used and believe me I have heard them with anything from Monster Amp to OTL Tubes passing through SET. They have progressed to a point where the new Maggies, the .7 series can and will disappear with proper set-up. I do not share your point about electronics and the "disappearing" act , I know of some speakers that simply disappear inmost roonm with almost any electronics, the old Spica TC-50 were master of this disappearing act, regardless of electronics or front end.

As for Sonus Faber I have experienced the Electa Amator doing a strange "I-am-not-even-there-so-where-is-the-sound-coming-from?"but the sound was as big as any speakers had any right to be... To me one of the best Sonus Faber ever...
As for Wilson the X-2 works on small scale as well as any speaker large or small... heard it doing so with various electronics...
 

andromedaaudio

VIP/Donor
Jan 23, 2011
8,354
2,731
1,400
Amsterdam holland
Housings such as kharma builds will surely help with the disappearing act , there are certain levels of disappearing:), with very good speakers you only hear music
IMO very good loudspeakers with relatively cheap amps , will still disappear in room , dont skip on speakers.
Only negative thing i found on this thread is that that building in china definetively needs an elevator:D
 
Last edited:

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
great photos! is the owner using both the Vitus amps and the Kondo Kaguras? I also see Vitus and a few other choices pieces I think...
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing