Pops, ticks and artifacts

sombunya · Mar 7, 2013

I've read how a good cleaning can remove some of these but have never really experienced it firsthand. I seem to remember long ago of reading about the incredible temperatures generated at that tiny point of styllus/vinyl contact.

I also believe that once they are "burned in", things like fingerprints, dust and other contaminents are pretty much there for good and nothing can repair this damage.

If there was a cleaning method/system that could fix this I would probably be on it, provided I wouldn't have to mortgage my home to buy it.

I'm interested in other's opinions on this.

mep · Mar 7, 2013

There is a huge difference between permanent groove damage to a record caused by a worn out stylus, a misaligned stylus, too much tracking force, too light of a tracking force, or incorrect setting of anti-skating. Once physical damage has been done to the record grooves, you are hosed. Good record cleaning machines paired with good cleaning fluids and a good brush will remove other gunk/junk/debris that is on your records and can make them look and sound pristine.

Atmasphere · Apr 18, 2013

If your cartridge is tracking correctly you may also notice that there is less surface noise. Some inexpensive preamps can actually exacerbate ticks and pops as well!

cjfrbw · Apr 18, 2013

It's one of the "life is not fair" maxims of audio, the more you spend on quality turntables, cartridges and preamps, the less noisy the playback, or at least, the noise is relegated to a 360 degree spatial field that makes it less apparent.

If you are a true vinyl lover, you learn to roll with a bit of noise in exchange for the experience. I can use the occasional pops and ticks as a depth gauge for my system. If they are extremely out to the sides, deep in the field, and travel through my head like a bullet transient, and have a good impulse speed and frequency content, I know the system is primed. I kind of like them if they are random and not too frequent.

However, I can see how that might bother a lot of audiophiles who want black curtain silence (something I never hear live, anyway) and for them the audio gods invented digital.

Johnny Vinyl · Apr 18, 2013

sombunya said:
I've read how a good cleaning can remove some of these but have never really experienced it firsthand. I seem to remember long ago of reading about the incredible temperatures generated at that tiny point of styllus/vinyl contact.

I also believe that once they are "burned in", things like fingerprints, dust and other contaminents are pretty much there for good and nothing can repair this damage.

If there was a cleaning method/system that could fix this I would probably be on it, provided I wouldn't have to mortgage my home to buy it.

I'm interested in other's opinions on this.

If it's there to begin with then I'm not sure it can be eliminated entirely no matter how good the cleaning process.

I'm not sure what you mean by "burned in" however? Does dust settle into a groove to such a degree it can't be removed? I doubt it.

treitz3 · Apr 18, 2013

Hello and good afternoon to you, sombunya. This topic is one that used to turn me off from vinyl. Much like static on an FM radio station, I'd rather turn it off than to put up with it. That's just me, YMMV. With that said, a couple of years back, I set out to improve this. I purchased a Nitty Gritty RCM, tried different solutions, distilled water, fiddled with the arm and needle settings and while all of this made a noticeable difference, it wasn't until I started steam cleaning the LP's [as they were being washed by the Nitty Gritty] that sonic vinyl bliss really started for me.

In my experience, I tend to agree with Atmasphere in that certain pre-amps can exacerbate the unwanted artifacts. If one were to take for granted that the LP player is adjusted properly and all upstream gear is up to snuff, it boils down to the LP itself. If you start with a decent record cleaning machine, much of the unwanted artifacts are no longer audible or seem to become hidden within the music. However, when you introduce [proper] steam cleaning of the LP's, I have personally been able to reduce the unwanted pops, ticks and artifacts to a measly 5% of what they were. New LP's included. Of course, permanent damage is just that. Permanent. But getting rid of fingerprints, oils, dust, embedded "unknowns" and other things that tend to cling to any LP I own like fine metal shavings to a powerful magnet becomes a non issue for the most part.

I have never achieved absolute perfection using the Nitty Gritty in combination with the steam cleaning method I use but I sure have achieved excellence. One afternoon, I invited bob Carver over to listen to what my cleaning methods could do for vinyl and his response after listening was....and I quote, "Wow! I never knew vinyl could sound so good." Coming from a person with a vast amount of experience beyond mine and also coming from a person who primarily listens to vinyl and has for many decades [even before I was born], I was a tad surprised. After he heard the results, he was very interested in how I did what I had just done.

All that aside, vinyl doesn't always have to have such a pronounced artifact library embedded within the grooves. Much of all of the unwanted noise can be gone throughout most of the album, unless the LP is permanently damaged. So please do not believe that believe that once they are "burned in", things like fingerprints, dust and other contaminents are pretty much there for good and nothing can repair this damage. Most, if not all of that IS repairable and it you won't have to take out a second mortgage to achieve it. Perhaps a lower line of Nitty Gritty, VPI or the like RCM [around 500 smackers] and a Shark steam cleaner [around 60-70 dollars], along with distilled water [free, if you make it yourself] and proper techniques will get you where you want to sonically be which is mostly free of the plague of unwanted artifacts disrupting the actual music.

Now, I absolutely LOVE vinyl and what little bit of artifacts are left over? I kind of like, for nostalgia's sake. Besides, the sound more than makes up for it.

Tom

JackD201 · Apr 18, 2013

cjfrbw said:
It's one of the "life is not fair" maxims of audio, the more you spend on quality turntables, cartridges and preamps, the less noisy the playback, or at least, the noise is relegated to a 360 degree spatial field that makes it less apparent.

If you are a true vinyl lover, you learn to roll with a bit of noise in exchange for the experience. I can use the occasional pops and ticks as a depth gauge for my system. If they are extremely out to the sides, deep in the field, and travel through my head like a bullet transient, and have a good impulse speed and frequency content, I know the system is primed. I kind of like them if they are random and not too frequent.

However, I can see how that might bother a lot of audiophiles who want black curtain silence (something I never hear live, anyway) and for them the audio gods invented digital.

+1

MylesBAstor · Apr 18, 2013

Atmasphere said:
If your cartridge is tracking correctly you may also notice that there is less surface noise. Some inexpensive preamps can actually exacerbate ticks and pops as well!

One may also find that line trace styli are getting down into parts of the groove that weren't touched by older cartridges with conical type needles

DaveyF · Apr 19, 2013

I just finished reading today that MF believes that a worn stylus will NOT damage a record...

Why, because according to MF, a worn stylus will have the sharp edges worn down and will therefore not be damaging groove walls. Instead, he believes that the high frequencies and detail of the recording will not be portrayed. This does seem to make some sense to me. OTOH, a diamond that is now not a shape that will trace the walls of the groove correctly, would seem to be able to deform said walls and therefore cause permanent damage..

To get back to OP, I think that a badly worn LP is simply that-- and no amount of cleaning, steaming or what have you will correct that. Personally, I can overlook a certain amount of background hash, what gets me is a scratch that contributes a timely and continuous tick or pop....to me that record is now basically unlistenable.

NorthStar · Apr 19, 2013

If the pops and ticks were part of the music itself, that wouldn't be so bad.

Shaffer · Apr 19, 2013

NorthStar said:
If the pops and ticks were part of the music itself, that wouldn't be so bad.

Heh, sometimes they are. What's worse is some electronic/experimental music, where one doesn't really know whether the noise is a part of the recording or not.

Ultimately, IME, surface noise can be corrected, but pressing defects cannot. Total silence, unfortunately, is not a part of the equation either case. The better systems can separate the surface noise from the recording, and if that's not enough, there is certainly more antiseptic media to be had.

Groucho · Apr 19, 2013

Gosh. I'd actually forgotten that one aspect of the analogue world is that you change the medium by using it. When you're a kid with a record player you never worry about it, but for an audiophile there's always going to be that extra mental overhead that says

"I'm in a really good mood, just back from the pub. Tell you what, I'd really like to listen to my 1963 copy of Freewheelin' Bob Dylan. But let's just think about it before doing something rash. It's late and I'm tired. Can I trust myself not to drop it? Let's go for it! But just a minute, every time I play a record I cause some wear, but if it's symmetrical it won't sound too bad for quite a few plays. But if it's assymetrical... I haven't even changed this stylus for two years and I know that excessive tracking force can permanently damage a record. When did I last measure it? Come to think of it, I've never set up the vertical tracking angle or the overhang properly. Where's that alignment protractor I sent for? Should I just play something digital? But no! The experts say it's soulless and clinical, and I'd love to hear something real. Only music that's been transferred to a fragile microscopic wiggly line on a lump of vinyl is real. Now if I'm careful, I can just ease it out of its sleeve without touching it... Can I open the deck lid with one hand? Damn! I left my copy of James Last's Greatest Hits on it from last time. If I just rest the Bob Dylan on the arm of this chair... Who let that dog in?!" etc.

I'd forgotten about the goold old days.

cjfrbw · Apr 19, 2013

Groucho said:
Gosh. I'd actually forgotten that one aspect of the analogue world is that you change the medium by using it. When you're a kid with a record player you never worry about it, but for an audiophile there's always going to be that extra mental overhead that says

"I'm in a really good mood, just back from the pub. Tell you what, I'd really like to listen to my 1963 copy of Freewheelin' Bob Dylan. But let's just think about it before doing something rash. It's late and I'm tired. Can I trust myself not to drop it? Let's go for it! But just a minute, every time I play a record I cause some wear, but if it's symmetrical it won't sound too bad for quite a few plays. But if it's assymetrical... I haven't even changed this stylus for two years and I know that excessive tracking force can permanently damage a record. When did I last measure it? Come to think of it, I've never set up the vertical tracking angle or the overhang properly. Where's that alignment protractor I sent for? Should I just play something digital? But no! The experts say it's soulless and clinical, and I'd love to hear something real. Only music that's been transferred to a fragile microscopic wiggly line on a lump of vinyl is real. Now if I'm careful, I can just ease it out of its sleeve without touching it... Can I open the deck lid with one hand? Damn! I left my copy of James Last's Greatest Hits on it from last time. If I just rest the Bob Dylan on the arm of this chair... Who let that dog in?!" etc.

I'd forgotten about the goold old days.

Really, now, you forgot the record cleaning machines and the sacrificial lamb.

NorthStar · Apr 19, 2013

That was a good and true and fun post Groucho.

* Carl, yours too earlier was an interesting (quasi scientific) one.
...Choose, live, and adapt with it. ...And yeah, spend more money too, and do all the rituals necessary to reduce those ticks and pops and other artifacts (phase, rumble, low energy vibration, illusion delivery, and all that TT jazz).

Teach our youngsters too in implementing analog reproduction into their lives so they can relax more and work less.

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Pops, ticks and artifacts

sombunya

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mep

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Atmasphere

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cjfrbw

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Johnny Vinyl

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treitz3

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NorthStar

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Groucho

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cjfrbw

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