Many big names missing from Axpona in Chicago. Worth attending the show?

caesar

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Also, the fire alarm went off today. Everyone grumbled "Are you $%^%^& kidding?", as things were just settling in very nicely, and then several thousand people calmly walked down the flights of stairs. After 45-60 minutes, there was an "all clear" announcement. A silver lining of the interruption was a chance to share opinions with others.
 

caesar

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IMO, some reviewers and audiophiles have already decided about the 18" woofers before their butt hits the chair.

That is very unfortunate. Scaena is as good as it gets in this hobby, period. I think the issue is that those huge woofers require a large, dedicated room (not to be shown to the wife). What sized room does Scaena recommend?
 

FrantzM

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Frantz,

Stating that a generally accepted fact is a myth and linking it with your general feeling about audiophiles is derogation. Sorry. We are addressing the exceptions in the successful cases we refer - happy to know this time we consider that extra money well spent. Go to ebay or a general DIY speaker shop catalog and look for the typical 18" woofer that is being sold there. Most are around usd 100. They will probably sound slow.

Considering that the same engineering problems exist in a small and in a large woofer shows you are not considering that speakers having small woofers usually have many woofers. In general, no one will try moving the same amount of air with a small woofer than with a large one. Of course, bass is an engineering problem and engineering problems have many solutions, some are more cost effective than others.

My other experiences from the past - the first model of the KEF 105 and the original B&W 801. Both the 105/II and the 802 (similar models using each two smaller 8" woofers had faster bass. Another slow bass - the Snell type A. A fast bass with many woofers - the Revel Salon2.

Ok, I reformulate :) - if cost is a concern, most probably a large woofer means "slow" bass.

A generally accepted fact? My general feelings about audiophiles ? What are you talking about? The notion that a 18 inch woofer is slow is NOT a fact .. As a matter of fact that it is so widely held make of it a myth, a belief not based on truth. Period. As for some bought on ebay 18 inch sounding slow is a textbook case of argumentation fallacy
I see that at the end logic prevailed thus you wrote
Of course, bass is an engineering problem and engineering problems have many solutions, some are more cost effective than others.

Of course your parting shot is not a good argument either ... but we can leave it at that... It is all good

Back to Axpona...

See if you can make it to RMAF, I 'll be there this year.
 

microstrip

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A generally accepted fact? My general feelings about audiophiles ? What are you talking about? The notion that a 18 inch woofer is slow is NOT a fact .. As a matter of fact that it is so widely held make of it a myth, a belief not based on truth. Period. As for some bought on ebay 18 inch sounding slow is a textbook case of argumentation fallacy
I see that at the end logic prevailed thus you wrote

Of course your parting shot is not a good argument either ... but we can leave it at that... It is all good

Back to Axpona...

See if you can make it to RMAF, I 'll be there this year.

Frantz,

Congratulations, you manage to distort my ideas, even presenting cases that were only shown as an example of bad use as an argumentation fallacy. I try to refer to facts and examples, you prefer to use your pen ...

Interested readers can find why thinks are not as simple as many will think in this interesting explanatory Soundstage text:

There are reasons to use lighter, lower-mass woofer cones. They just happen to be different reasons than the ones you’ve read in print. Smaller woofers don’t make faster bass, but they do reproduce higher frequencies than larger woofers can reproduce, and this is all important when it comes to speaker design. You want the midrange driver and the woofer to integrate with sublime symmetry, with perfection and with nary a single problematic interaction throughout their overlap zone. This is why you want smaller, lighter, "faster" woofer cones -- not because they lead to faster bass. That overlap zone is so amazingly critical to your perception of bass speed that there is little or no tolerance for error. The null tolerance for integration error extends to phase, amplitude, frequency, and time. Introduce even slight variations between any part of the woofer and midrange (or panel) overlap zone and you get audible effects in the bass or midbass. This is where all of your perception of bass speed comes from.

In fact, bass speed is virtually 100% a function of how ideally the midrange and woofer are integrated


See it all at :
http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm

I have read another debate on these matters, showing preference for several small woofers in an article about the Revel Salon2, but could not find it.
 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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Frantz,

Congratulations, you manage to distort my ideas, even presenting cases that were only shown as an example of bad use as an argumentation fallacy. I try to refer to facts and examples, you prefer to use your pen ...

Interested readers can find why thinks are not as simple as many will think in this interesting explanatory Soundstage text:

There are reasons to use lighter, lower-mass woofer cones. They just happen to be different reasons than the ones you’ve read in print. Smaller woofers don’t make faster bass, but they do reproduce higher frequencies than larger woofers can reproduce, and this is all important when it comes to speaker design. You want the midrange driver and the woofer to integrate with sublime symmetry, with perfection and with nary a single problematic interaction throughout their overlap zone. This is why you want smaller, lighter, "faster" woofer cones -- not because they lead to faster bass. That overlap zone is so amazingly critical to your perception of bass speed that there is little or no tolerance for error. The null tolerance for integration error extends to phase, amplitude, frequency, and time. Introduce even slight variations between any part of the woofer and midrange (or panel) overlap zone and you get audible effects in the bass or midbass. This is where all of your perception of bass speed comes from.

In fact, bass speed is virtually 100% a function of how ideally the midrange and woofer are integrated


See it all at :
http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm

I have read another debate on these matters, showing preference for several small woofers in an article about the Revel Salon2, but could not find it.

microstrip

You posted::
Stating that a generally accepted fact is a myth and linking it with your general feeling about audiophiles is derogation.
What is the generally accepted fact that I stated as being a myth? The idea of a slow woofer? It is a myth and no amount of dithering and of backtracking will change that ...
And of course you make the case that bass speeds is a function of integration not of woofer size thus .. dispelling the myth .. Thank you then :)

Will not reply in this thread .. We can take it elsewhere
Back to the Axpona show
 
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Ron Party

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From Mark Seaton:

Just remember there is a lot of audiophile folklore which is just as misguided as the many hypotheses of what makes for subjectively "fast bass" <I cringe even typing that phrase>. Regardless of how well intended those ideas were or how much they follow some simplified intuition, most have little basis in science, and fall into the realm of coincidence rather than causality.

The biggest problem I see lies in the connotative definitions of the descriptors of "fast bass" and the resulting extrapolations so many make which are non-causal, but ARE coincidental.

I regularly push to change the vocabulary to more specific descriptions, as with further probing, I've seen many use the "fast/slow" descriptor for a wide range of subjective observations. The most common causes of such observations can be tracked directly to the room's transfer function at the listening position, along with integration issues with the main speakers, and even differences in the ground plane behavior of the subwoofer. More often than not so many audiophile hypotheses stem from likely coincidences with common room transfer functions and measurement blind crossover implementations.

The ultimate questions come back to answering the perceptions of why so many perceive an 18" woofer as "slow" and a 10" as "fast", or a ported 12" vs. sealed 12" may have similar perceptions.

The reality is that it is possible to create examples that clearly break these perceptions, but they are not what is commonly available for many obvious reasons.

"Speed/fast" is a horribly lacking descriptor on its own in the context of bass reproduction. With plenty of additional qualifiers and descriptors it can be used to communicate a subjective observation, but it is easily confused as many want to tie the description to the cause.

After I'm done rolling my eyes when asked about how "fast" the bass is, I typically then follow with more probing questions as to what details of the reproduction and subjective sound the listener is referring to.

The real disconnect is that the woofer itself only plays a partial role in what accounts for this description which so many interpret so differently in their minds. Most have never experimented to see how much the overall spectral balance up into the tweeter and the response smoothness affects what falls under the subjective umbrella of "fast bass". <cringe>

I personally much prefer terms like accurate, responsive, precise, no overhang, etc, etc.
 

JackD201

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Update: Von Schweikert is sounding much better today. The good doctor must have tweaked something in the system last night or this morning. I still feel the system is underpowered with a 25 watt amp, but there is no doubt that the new speaker is one of the world's best.

The MBL 101 system is sounding much better today as well.

Also, the Sony system driven by Hegel and $2,500 Rega turntable is very special also.

I've been worried about that since I was told that the room they would be displaying in, The Othello, is the largest room there. Too bad the DX monos at 100wpc were bought and thus could not be used.
 

mep

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Caesar-Sorry I missed you as I was at the show. And yeah, the fire alarm was a bummer. It was interesting as to how most people didn't take it seriously because there were no flames flickering about their ass, but I personally don't take any chances when fire alarms go off. My motto is to get out first and ask questions later.
 

KBK

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After working on speakers for a good +20 years, I can say with a certain amount of confidence that 'bass speed' or 'woofer speed' is deeply tied to crossover phase considerations.

That the bass wave may be slow, but it's fine placement of timing with respect to midbass/mid/low treble become EVERYTHING.

This new work showing how the ear can be 5-10-12-even 15x better than FFT analysis in the phase department..this bit of work illustrates this point quite abundantly. let's say it is largely a 35hz wave, if sine analysed. But that it has other components.

It matters not that it is principally made of a 35hz component. It's correctness in phase, in positioning in time..must be at the 2khz-4khz-10khz and beyond in perfection of phase location, or location in time, in relation to the rest of the musical components.

Standard analysis might put this phase 'view' as being 0.01% of the 35hz wave's native relationship in time, but the complexity of music says that analysis... is immaterial and can be dismissed. The phase is the phase and the ear gives a damn, as this is all it is looking for. It wants phase and level on transients, and the rest it does not give a flying fornication about. Those things it cares about, it is a very accomplished device, as it commits to 100% of it's interpretation (decoding) in those areas.

Can the ear hear a drum note that is principally a, oh.. 35hz note... and place it perfectly, with respect to time relation to other components of the signal, in the microseconds area of jitter/timing aspect? Can it tell if it is 'off' or not? If it is correct, or not? In the microsecond area? Really?

The answer is yes, it can.
 
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microstrip

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rblnr

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That is very unfortunate. Scaena is as good as it gets in this hobby, period. I think the issue is that those huge woofers require a large, dedicated room (not to be shown to the wife). What sized room does Scaena recommend?

Scaena doesn't have a specific recommendation on room size. I have put them in a 12x16 room and had them sounding good, but as with any speaker, that's can have you sitting pretty close to the back wall which is not ideal. It helps that they work well too sitting close. Harry Pearson's room is small and they sound spectacular there IMO.

I've also installed them with a single Paradigm Sub 1 instead of the dual Scaena woofers where space or aestethics came into play.
 

MarinJim

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caesar

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Caesar-Sorry I missed you as I was at the show. And yeah, the fire alarm was a bummer. It was interesting as to how most people didn't take it seriously because there were no flames flickering about their ass, but I personally don't take any chances when fire alarms go off. My motto is to get out first and ask questions later.


Yes, too bad we didn't meet. I hope to make it out to RMAF later this year, so hopefully then.
 

caesar

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By Sunday, the TAD - Lamm - MSB room with United Home Audio tape machine was the best room in the show, IMHO. Sorry Magico fans, TAD is the best box speaker on earth.
 

mep

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I agree that Jonathan's room sounded great. His tapes are special. However, I wouldn't say it was the best sound at the show. I really think the VS room was the best sounding.
 

MarinJim

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Anybody hear the Venture room with either FM Acoustics or Hegel or Venture electronics?
 

Frank750

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Anybody hear the Venture room with either FM Acoustics or Hegel or Venture electronics?

Heard both rooms with Venture speakers. I'm not familiar with the models but I thought the smaller speaker sounded better than the larger units. Clearly a setup issue as bass was severely lacking among other problems. Neither room was all that memorable. The finish of the Venture speakers is absolutely stunning though. Sorry, can't give you more. I wasn't taking notes or pictures.
 

caesar

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That was close...now that I am married to 101E MkIIs for over a year, divorce at current state of our union would have been costly... ;)

In all fairness this was not the best I've heard the 101's sound. It was a very challenging room that the MBL team had work with. They draped it in curtains and installed very cool looking glass/ plastic diffusers around the room. (Anyone know what they are?)

But just like a world champion who finds a way to win, they pulled it off. With the tape source material, it was a transcendental experience. It was unlike anything most audiophiles have ever experienced.

You have nothing to worry about.
 

caesar

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Anybody hear the Venture room with either FM Acoustics or Hegel or Venture electronics?


To my ears, the big Venture room had very "beautified" sound. If this is their sonic signature, I totally get why their owners and fans are so passionate about the gear. However, it lacked the dynamic swings of a real show, like say the Von Scweikert room across the hall. Again, I'm not sure if it was the large room or the associated gear that caused it to sound more beautiful than real.
 

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