freq response of analogue recorders !!

andromedaaudio

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After having played with the studer B 62 VU with clean heads for a while , i know this technology has future for me ,what a nice machine ???:D

here are some freq responses of tapemachines recording wise , but i suspect reproduce responses will be something like that as well .

http://www.endino.com/graphs/

all the machines record (and reproduce?) substantial extended bass at 15 ips /blue line , quite a difference compared to 30 ips

I suspect the studer A 827 has great bass !!
Unfortunately the A 820 is only shown at 30 ips /red line
The A 80 is less in that regard and the B 62 has the same amp card as the A 80
 
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treitz3

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Thanks for the link, andromedaaudio. Bookmarked for future use. ;)

Tom
 

rbbert

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Even on consumer machines like the Technics 1500 series, record EQ (and bias) at each speed is adjustable to better level out those frequency response aberrations.
 

Bruce B

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I posted some graphs here earlier where I had a signal generator going into my modified A80 and you could clearly see signal out to 50-60k
 

tony ky ma

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In compare of tape head preamps, I think the transparency and emotional or detail difference have more effect to the reproduce sound than the frequency response but they can not be measured out ( no such instruments) only by the feeling in listening
tony ma
 

andromedaaudio

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Agreed , just comparing original /standard analogue machines , it will say something about the sound however

Ampex ATR 102 and Sony APR-5000 are also great in this aspect, although the ampex carries special heads
 

Ki Choi

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The A 80 is less in that regard and the B 62 has the same amp card as the A 80

I have to disagree. A80RC with proper head and calibrated properly would match or surpass machines listed in frequency response arena. In addition, there are differences in audio cards between B62 and A80RC especially in Record Amp cards. If interested, I will post some photos of both audio cards so that you can see the differences.

Ki
 

andromedaaudio

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Sure i would appriciate that , actually i am in the process of buying an old A 80 RC mk 2 1/4 which is not working properly it has a problem : PCB kaart: 1.081.393 ''command receiver''.
When that is repaired i hope to compare the 2 machines , i like the tape handling of the A 8 series machines more.
Is it not true for example that a A 820 or A827 is better in the bass region ., more linear and extended??
 

Ki Choi

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Here you go:



The Record Amp board on top is from B62. Notice there's no relay daughter board (1.080.974) found in bottom Record Amp board from A80RC. Although basic circuits are the same in both and the top B62 board 1.080.982-11 can be converted to -12 to work in an A80RC, as the tech made a note in the service tag, it is not compatible with A80 in its "as is" circuit.

there's a chance if your B62 was made in ~1979 time frame, and it may have come with early A80R audio boards.

Ki
 

andromedaaudio

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Thanks ,here are my cards the repro and the record , its a 2-12-74 model , it looks different , ah i see you removed the ccir/nab cards


DSC_0027 by andromeda61, on Flickr


DSC_0026 by andromeda61, on Flickr

What are the crucial parts to restore , replacing dryed out old caps? are there any coupling caps in this design, for putting in a mundorf supreme for example ?
How can you see a cap is bad by the way , leaking ? high quality loudspeaker caps dont have this problem.
It does sound pretty good already though , the detailretrival is by far the best ive heard , every cough in the audience and not just a cough but also the intensity , footsteps in the walkway its all there .
Now i am absolutely positive ,on the source side the " high end " hasnt gone anywhere the last 40 years, in absolute terms
I am r2r convert , the nicest drivesystem i find ampex ATR 100/102

hj
 
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tony ky ma

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Only electrolytic cap will dry out but most of them in here is for by pass , if they were bad , will more hum or distort, all coupling caps are tantalum cap , most are 47uf , in my modification was change to better one without polarity (Solen) has a very good result , but it is too big can't put into the card has wire out
tony ma
 

Ki Choi

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Only electrolytic cap will dry out but most of them in here is for by pass , if they were bad , will more hum or distort, all coupling caps are tantalum cap , most are 47uf , in my modification was change to better one without polarity (Solen) has a very good result , but it is too big can't put into the card has wire out
tony ma

Hi HJ,

It seems your B62 had been upgraded and newer audio cards were installed in its later life. The audio boards you had shown are compatible with A80RC. Although there had been further improvements from the version you have, it looks good from the photo. The younger audio boards would have the A101 "opamp" made of discrete transistors and other parts in a small daughter board instead of the blue colored potted device you see in all of the photos. Even the potted A101 amps have evolved. There are two kinds - one potted kind with simpler discrete parts and newer version with surface mounted parts that are thinner.

There is a C40 (470pF) Polystyrene cap near the edge connector (from my memory...it is tied to the C6 and to the signal ground). I recommend replacing it with 150 pF to use with modern hot tapes such as ATR and RMR900 to increase dynamic headroom in record bias and HF response.

Yes, I didn't show the EQ boards. The particular A80RC audio card would have modified EQ board for 15 ips in IEC EQ but 7.5 ips in NAB to play commercially available two track tapes. I once was pleasantly surprised at the A80RC machine's performance even at 7.5 ips NAB using RMG900 tape properly calibrated. It certainly sounded as good or better than other average master recorders running at 15 ips. bottom line, you should get an A80RC. :)

Tony is correct, I would recommend all yellowish Frako electrolytic caps to be replaced with modern kinds before one of them would short out your power supply or literally blow up in smoke! I like Panasonic or Nichicon or I use other esoteric caps with very low ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) and similar size.

I had various discussions over the years with true Studer experts around the world (whereas I am a fake) on the virtues of the Tantalum caps (blue and green tear drop shaped caps) in Studer audio boards. What I had been able to learn was that Studer used them for reliability, form factors, and economic reasons but long use of the Tantalum in their audio circuit had morphed into the "Studer Sound" that some people would defend with vigor. On the other hand, I have talked to other professionals, who think the Tantalum caps are junk and must be replaced. I tried both and can't tell huge differences in sound.

I left them alone in all of Bruce's and my A80RC machines. I figure, if it is good enough for Bruce, it's good enough for me and who's to argue? ;)
 

andromedaaudio

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Sure , sounds logical, thanks for claring up somethings , the tech i will bring it to , also was talking about panasonic (gold caps ) .
I actually will be picking up an old A 80 RC mk 2 1/4 inch on thursday , but its not in a nice shape , the guy i bought it from was a very heavy smoker and it stood unused in his room for years broken , its going straight to the tech not even to my house :D
The right motor is not running it has a card problem or something else mayby , he said PCB kaart: 1.081.393 ''command receiver'' doesnt work properly .

the technician by the way , also has a A 820 ,which he kind a restored so he has studer expirience , he also said throw away all those BASF tapes :D
 

Ki Choi

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A80RC is relatively easy to troubleshoot. If you have access to another A80RC and the transport cards, it is even easier. One of the most common problem with 35+ year old machine is its main power supply filter caps. You would have easier time locating the stud bolt mount capacitors in Europe.

Keep us informed with your progress. There are few things I had done to mine that might interests you.
 

andromedaaudio

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I will keep you and tony among others informed , when i have the A 80 repaired i will post pictures of it and the cards to see what the tech has done .
I will listen then for a while and will maybe have some other mods done .
Regarding caps , i might (be stubborn :D)and go for high quality design structure caps and have the tantalum taken out , it was probably a cost effective decision by studer .
But if the new ones dont fit properly on the board i might leave them alone , i ll discuss it with the tech , they wont be a major upgrade anyway as you tried it already.
Look forward hearing about future possibilities .
I ll discuss putting in the lower value polystrene cap also , thanks for the tips

best regards hj
 
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tony ky ma

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Hi HJ
There are pictures to show what I did to replace coupling caps into Solen caps and also replaced the output section into tube with output transformer, power supply in other case, same thing done in record card too, we are using this modified A80RC to do the live recordings and master duding copies. maybe you can visit our website to see more pictures . ultraanaloguerecordings.com
tony ma
 

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andromedaaudio

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very nice, i saw you have a switch still so you can compare between regular A 80 stage and tube stage .
I already visited your web site , looks very promising when i am more familiar with tapes and the machines are working perfect , i am gonna buy high quality recordings .
 

tony ky ma

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The selecter switch only work for show off to some visitors, so far no one will take the stock sound after compare, transparency and emotion is the main issue
tony ma
 

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