There's no question in my mind that people who are digital only love music. I commend them for their listening stamina...
Why do we love vinyl more than digital?
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There's no question in my mind that people who are digital only love music. I commend them for their listening stamina...
Myles you suggested an experience that you did not conduct and for which you have no reference and I am supposed to take the mention of it in the name of open mindedness as substantiation? Really
Frantz, first of all I suggested an experiment. I doubt too many here, much less in the real world, have even endeavored to take the time to try this.
Second, I don't think this is news. It's been talked about before.
Lastly, I'll take the experience of someone in the trenches over any FFT toting, academic wannabee, freak. Like that physicist who said baseballs couldn't curve or break.
And yet Barry Diament (probably as renowned as Allen Sides in this area) has stated emphatically and repeatedly that his 24/192 digital recording setup is the closest thing to the live mic feed that he has heard.
Q:
When you compare a direct mic feed to the analog tape record- ing of that feed what differences do you hear? How much is lost in the basic recording process?
A:
Again, the live mic feed is more direct and “open” than even the best analog tape. It isn’t a major difference but it is very easy to pick up on. The sound coming back on the analog tape is rounder and slightly blunted by comparison.
Q:
When you compare the original master tape recording to the commercial vinyl records and CDs made from those recordings, what musical information seems to be missing? Which provides a better representation of the master tape, vinyl or compact disc? Which one best conveys the musical message to you?
A:
I feel that you have to look at LP and CD separately. There really is no comparison. Yes, it is possible that a bad LP press- ing will be beat by a superb mastering of a CD.
It’s possible. But for the most part LP retains much more of the critical information that makes you feel the music on an emo- tional level. That thing that makes you tap your foot, nod your head, cry, laugh—whatever it is the artist is intending for you to feel—is just so much more alive on vinyl. CD comes off as kind of dead by comparison. You turn the volume up trying to make something happen, but the deadness just gets louder. You find your mind wandering, you start reading the paper, doing other things. After a while you turn it off. Your brain is being asked to fill in the blanks that 16-bit/44.1kHz can’t provide. So listening to music becomes work! Music is supposed to be relief from work.
Q:
Tell us about your experiences with Direct Stream Digital recording and SACD discs. How does a DSD master recording on hard disc compare to the mic feed?
A:
DSD is a major advance in my opinion. It is the closest archival medium we have for capturing the sound of the direct mic feed. In fact, if we are talking about the sound of the DSD hard disc, the sound is so close as to be nearly indistinguishable. All the life—the musical “juice”— is retained on DSD.
Q:
How does a commercial SACD disc compare to the original DSD recording on hard disc?
A:
You ask a very interesting question about how the information is retained once the data is processed for commercial SACD disc. The answer is it mostly is. And more of it is retained now than even a year ago.
Those of us involved with DSD recording began to notice that when we backed up the hard drive onto an AIT tape something happened. Something was lost. Sony began to investigate this, minds like Ed Meitner got involved. Now what you get back on the commercial disc is much more like the original hard drive. It was good to begin with and it’s getting better all the time.
The above interview hints there's still a lot more work that needs to be done on the way music is retrieved and decoded on SACD/CD players before they can go to match the LP playback system in the way the toe tapping emotions can be conveyed effortlessly....
When you compare a direct mic feed to the analog tape record- ing of that feed what differences do you hear? How much is lost in the basic recording process?
A:
Again, the live mic feed is more direct and “open” than even the best analog tape. It isn’t a major difference but it is very easy to pick up on. The sound coming back on the analog tape is rounder and slightly blunted by comparison.
Q:
When you compare the original master tape recording to the commercial vinyl records and CDs made from those recordings, what musical information seems to be missing? Which provides a better representation of the master tape, vinyl or compact disc? Which one best conveys the musical message to you?
A:
I feel that you have to look at LP and CD separately. There really is no comparison. Yes, it is possible that a bad LP press- ing will be beat by a superb mastering of a CD.
It’s possible. But for the most part LP retains much more of the critical information that makes you feel the music on an emo- tional level. That thing that makes you tap your foot, nod your head, cry, laugh—whatever it is the artist is intending for you to feel—is just so much more alive on vinyl. CD comes off as kind of dead by comparison. You turn the volume up trying to make something happen, but the deadness just gets louder. You find your mind wandering, you start reading the paper, doing other things. After a while you turn it off. Your brain is being asked to fill in the blanks that 16-bit/44.1kHz can’t provide. So listening to music becomes work! Music is supposed to be relief from work.
Q:
Tell us about your experiences with Direct Stream Digital recording and SACD discs. How does a DSD master recording on hard disc compare to the mic feed?
A:
DSD is a major advance in my opinion. It is the closest archival medium we have for capturing the sound of the direct mic feed. In fact, if we are talking about the sound of the DSD hard disc, the sound is so close as to be nearly indistinguishable. All the life—the musical “juice”— is retained on DSD.
Q:
How does a commercial SACD disc compare to the original DSD recording on hard disc?
A:
You ask a very interesting question about how the information is retained once the data is processed for commercial SACD disc. The answer is it mostly is. And more of it is retained now than even a year ago.
Those of us involved with DSD recording began to notice that when we backed up the hard drive onto an AIT tape something happened. Something was lost. Sony began to investigate this, minds like Ed Meitner got involved. Now what you get back on the commercial disc is much more like the original hard drive. It was good to begin with and it’s getting better all the time.
The above interview hints there's still a lot more work that needs to be done on the way music is retrieved and decoded on SACD/CD players before they can go to match the LP playback system in the way the toe tapping emotions can be conveyed effortlessly....
Implementation details significantly missing in this. He never listened to a format, he had a particular DAC in his system. I'm curious to know which.
I must read similarly to you - to me this is saying he prefers DSD (which after all is digital) to analog tape. So can we infer that the vinyl lovers would prefer a DSD-mastered LP to an analog mastered one? Show of hands?
And you call yourself a scientist?
Have you ever done digital recording? If you did, the answer would be self explanatory. It simply has to do with where one sets their recording levels. And as you know, you don't want to go over 0 with digital, unlike analog.
As they say, ignorance is bliss.
Deflection Myles, where are the details?
A scientist is known by his methods, not by what he may wish to call himself. Did you not know that? A person who resorts to deflection when asked for experimental detail to me is behaving like a politician. A politician who appends a PhD to his name is still a politician.
A scientist is known by his methods, not by what he may wish to call himself. Did you not know that? A person who resorts to deflection when asked for experimental detail to me is behaving like a politician. A politician who appends a PhD to his name is still a politician.
I don't understand why when you're asked for experimental details why you keep deflecting, rather than providing them.
Yes.
And I know precisely because I've done digital recording (have experienced it) that this is nonsense. There's choice of particular ADC, choice of sample rates, number of bits, choices of dither for a start.
This is simply an untrue claim. See above for why.
I'm not a subscriber to this old wives' tale - I've experienced more bliss from knowing
Last edited:
Posted by Joe Harley on February 9, 2005 at 21:51:18
In Reply to: Joe, what was that you said before...? posted by jeromelang on February 9, 2005 at 19:30:07:
".....Hi Jerome,
No, it's still an issue. What is recorded DSD direct to the hard disc is near perfect, that is, nearly indentical to the mic feed. When you bounce it once...to save to an AIT tape, for instance, something goes wrong. The SACD is still a great advance, no question. But if we could get what is on the original DSD hard disc master to the final SACD, then we'd have a whole new ball game in my opinion.
Meitner and others are working on it from what I hear...."
I happened to meet Joe here in singapore just after a jacintha concert and during the coversation, i first heard him brought up this issue with dsd being backed up the hard drive onto an AIT tape that he felt something was (and probably is still) being lost. Question is - do vinyl pressing plants have facilities being able to transfer the dsd audio directly from a dsd hard drive to the cutting lathes?
In Reply to: Joe, what was that you said before...? posted by jeromelang on February 9, 2005 at 19:30:07:
".....Hi Jerome,
No, it's still an issue. What is recorded DSD direct to the hard disc is near perfect, that is, nearly indentical to the mic feed. When you bounce it once...to save to an AIT tape, for instance, something goes wrong. The SACD is still a great advance, no question. But if we could get what is on the original DSD hard disc master to the final SACD, then we'd have a whole new ball game in my opinion.
Meitner and others are working on it from what I hear...."
I happened to meet Joe here in singapore just after a jacintha concert and during the coversation, i first heard him brought up this issue with dsd being backed up the hard drive onto an AIT tape that he felt something was (and probably is still) being lost. Question is - do vinyl pressing plants have facilities being able to transfer the dsd audio directly from a dsd hard drive to the cutting lathes?
I like LPs better.
I like the way they go "thunk" shshshshsh shshshsh when the needle hits. I like the way the warps toss the tonearm up and down, and sometimes throw it right off.
I love how LPs are sometimes really distorted.
I like the skips when they play the same spot over and over again. I love the scratches and pops, they are really cool, the more the better.
I like the end of the record when you get another "thunk" and then kathunk kathunk kathunk.
The records don't even need music, I love 'em.
The covers are the perfect size to hold hoagie sandwiches. Sometimes they have cute chicks on them.
I like the way they go "thunk" shshshshsh shshshsh when the needle hits. I like the way the warps toss the tonearm up and down, and sometimes throw it right off.
I love how LPs are sometimes really distorted.
I like the skips when they play the same spot over and over again. I love the scratches and pops, they are really cool, the more the better.
I like the end of the record when you get another "thunk" and then kathunk kathunk kathunk.
The records don't even need music, I love 'em.
The covers are the perfect size to hold hoagie sandwiches. Sometimes they have cute chicks on them.
Yes.
And I know precisely because I've done digital recording (have experienced it) that this is nonsense. There's choice of particular ADC, choice of sample rates, number of bits, choices of dither for a start.
This is simply an untrue claim. See above for why.
I'm not a subscriber to this old wives' tale - I've experienced more bliss from knowing
Do you know what the word obtuse means? Where did I say recording levels were everything? But they are damn important regardless of your precious A/D, D/A, sample rates, dither, etc.
And yes you are ignorant. As are a group of people here who make judgements on half assed data. Or memories of a thirty year old turntable. Well it was HP who also said, if you want to enjoy digital, stop listening to analog. Obviously you heeded his advice.
Oh and I forgot. Everyone else is wrong and you are right. You know more than Allen Sides--who has been recording commercially for four + decades. Hats off to you dude.
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