Why the shortage of none HT based Pre-amps with multiple Pre-outs or Sub-outs

cjf

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Nov 19, 2012
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Been digging around for the last month or so looking for alternative ways to integrate a sub or two into my dedicated 2 channel rig by way of PreAmp only without the need for adding more boxes that use A/D conversion to the signal chain.

To my dismay this has been more difficult then anticipated. My goal was to try and find a unit that includes either a dedicated Sub output or a second set of PreOuts that run simultaneously with the main Preouts. I have no interest in HT receivers to make things more complicated.

To date I have only found a small handful of units that do have these features, aren't the price of a new automobile and actually have adequate documentation posted on their product pages to give a good idea on how you can use them:

Manley Jumbo Shrimp (Line Level Only)
Classe CP-800

I have seen a few others by well respected manufacturers but their web pages are of no real use to anyone and look to be made by middle school kids in computer class (Clears throat...uhhHumm..Audio Research)

In any case I see many folks here on WBF with subs in dedicated 2ch systems so I'm curious what you are using?

I know I have mentioned my disappointment in the past with Classe moving thier manufacturing over seas but from what I have read thru reviews and via the wealth of info posted on their website about the CP-800 I am finding it hard to ignore it's plethora of features including PEQ and DAC.

Anyone have a CP-800 who cares to add their thoughts on the unit? To me it appears that the manufacturer has thought of just about everything with this thing. I'm very tempted to say the least :)
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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CJ preamps have 2 pre-outs and also has some kind of home theater bypass (which it seems you do not wish to use since you dont want to use a hometheater processor). I use one for my amp and one for the sub. That said, when i did not have 2 preouts many years ago, used an RCA adaptor that allowed me to hook up to 2 cables to each RCA pre-out. If your preamp can handle the add'l load, that might be a 'quik way' to get you into having your subs hooked up.
 

rblnr

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May 3, 2010
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My ARC Ref 5 has multiple outputs and I use it in the way you're looking to.

Go here:

http://www.arcdb.ws

for ARC info that may not be on their site.
 

GaryProtein

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My McIntosh C46 preamp has three balanced outputs and three single ended outputs.

Even my vintage C28 has two outputs plus two center channel outputs.

You can always use a splitter to make additional outputs.
 

JackD201

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My Lamm L2 Reference has 1pr of XLR and 1 pr of RCA

My Valvet Soulshine has 1pr XLR and 2pr RCA

Neither are balanced preamps

My BAT VK-31 SE has 1pr Balanced XLR and 1pr SE RCA
 

microstrip

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The Dartzeel NH108B has five independently buffered outputs - one RCA, one XLR and three BNC. The BNC's are great for subs, as they can drive very long cables.

Although many tube preamplifiers have two sets of outputs, usually they are connected in parallel. This means that you should take care with the equivalent total load, as most subwoofers have an input impedance in the low kohms.
 

JackD201

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The Dartzeel NH108B has five independently buffered outputs - one RCA, one XLR and three BNC. The BNC's are great for subs, as they can drive very long cables.

Although many tube preamplifiers have two sets of outputs, usually they are connected in parallel. This means that you should take care with the equivalent total load, as most subwoofers have an input impedance in the low kohms.

Good point. You may need external buffers.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
The Dartzeel NH108B has five independently buffered outputs - one RCA, one XLR and three BNC. The BNC's are great for subs, as they can drive very long cables.

Although many tube preamplifiers have two sets of outputs, usually they are connected in parallel. This means that you should take care with the equivalent total load, as most subwoofers have an input impedance in the low kohms.

I agree

I used my Lamm LL1 Signature for both 2 channel listening as well as in my HT. There are 2 main outputs from the preamp, one of which goes to my Lamm ML3 amps but because they indeed are running in parallel I use a Music Fidelity tube buffer for the 2nd set of mains out and then to my Gotham subs. Vladimir Lamm has determined where on the LL1 unity gain is. I set my Lamm preamp at that gain and then control the entire volume of the HT speakers with my Lexicon processor
 

GaryProtein

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Jul 25, 2012
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The Dartzeel NH108B has five independently buffered outputs - one RCA, one XLR and three BNC. The BNC's are great for subs, as they can drive very long cables.

Although many tube preamplifiers have two sets of outputs, usually they are connected in parallel. This means that you should take care with the equivalent total load, as most subwoofers have an input impedance in the low kohms.

My Lamm L2 Reference has 1pr of XLR and 1 pr of RCA
My Valvet Soulshine has 1pr XLR and 2pr RCA
Neither are balanced preamps
My BAT VK-31 SE has 1pr Balanced XLR and 1pr SE RCA


He said a preamp that DOESN'T have the same price as a new automobile!;)
 

mep

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My Krell KBL and KRC-HR both have one pair of XLR outputs and one pair of RCA outputs. The KRC-HR has a HT bypass built in for those who need it. Hell, even my old Yamaha C2a had two sets of main outs.
 

Matt193

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While not really on the same level as what has been mentioned here so far, the Emotiva XSP-1 does exactly what you're looking to do. At $899 with a 30 day no questions asked return policy, it might be worth a listen to see how it stacks up compared to your current gear. The most you would be out would be return shipping.
 

cjf

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Nov 19, 2012
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He said a preamp that DOESN'T have the same price as a new automobile!;)



:eek: ....LOL Yes that was a key point

My current Preamp is an Ayre K5-xeMP which has only one set of balanced outputs. It also has a set of Line Level outputs which according to the manufacturer are still active when using the balanced outputs but these Line Level outs are said to be -6db down in level from the balanced output. I'm afraid that the 6db difference in level will make it very difficult to properly blend a sub with the front main channels.

I can only assume at this point that it must be a fairly expensive process for the manufacturer to add second set of Pre-outs to a Preamp that don't require additional buffers...etc in order to use them without causing issues downstream with an amp/sub.

The option that Steve Williams mentioned seems interesting using a buffer stage. I wonder if any of them offer a variable "Gain/Cut" feature? In my case, I have a -6db deficiency in output level to make up for if using the Line Level outputs in combination with the balanced outputs. Boosting the level up by +6db would solve the issue nicely assuming no issues in SQ are brought on by adding gain. I guess the fact that the signal would only be used to feed a sub would make any SQ loss less noticeable?

Thanks for the responses
 

JackD201

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JackD201

WBF Founding Member
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:eek: ....LOL Yes that was a key point

My current Preamp is an Ayre K5-xeMP which has only one set of balanced outputs. It also has a set of Line Level outputs which according to the manufacturer are still active when using the balanced outputs but these Line Level outs are said to be -6db down in level from the balanced output. I'm afraid that the 6db difference in level will make it very difficult to properly blend a sub with the front main channels.

I can only assume at this point that it must be a fairly expensive process for the manufacturer to add second set of Pre-outs to a Preamp that don't require additional buffers...etc in order to use them without causing issues downstream with an amp/sub.

The option that Steve Williams mentioned seems interesting using a buffer stage. I wonder if any of them offer a variable "Gain/Cut" feature? In my case, I have a -6db deficiency in output level to make up for if using the Line Level outputs in combination with the balanced outputs. Boosting the level up by +6db would solve the issue nicely assuming no issues in SQ are brought on by adding gain. I guess the fact that the signal would only be used to feed a sub would make any SQ loss less noticeable?

Thanks for the responses

The plate amp on the subs should easily make up for the 6dB difference in gain between Balanced and SE outputs. No need to buy a new preamp :)
 

audioguy

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Apr 20, 2010
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While not really on the same level as what has been mentioned here so far, the Emotiva XSP-1 does exactly what you're looking to do. At $899 with a 30 day no questions asked return policy, it might be worth a listen to see how it stacks up compared to your current gear. The most you would be out would be return shipping.

It is totally balanced all of the way through, has full bass management capabilities and I have one on order. I have also downloaded DiracLive to put on my server so for 2 channel, I get room corrected output from my server into my DAC, then to the QOL (which I LOVE), then into the XSP-1, then to subs and mains. If I don't like it, I send it back. Heck of a deal!!! May not sound like a $10,000 preamp but then I don't have $10,000 to spend on a preamp !!

I am quite surprised there are not some of the more traditional "high end" companies who have a two channel preamp with true bass management capabilities given the number of customers who use subs with their mains. While I recognize many of the subs have filters, they don't apply to the mains.

The only other product that I am familiar with that has high and low pass filters (and provides digital room correction) is the Anti-Mode Dual core (see http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core.shtml). I am using it in addition to Audyssey for correcting my subs for my HT system.
 

Cyclotronguy

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Aug 31, 2012
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And for those with the "solder-gene" a Nelson Pass "Pass DIY" B1 Buffer board.... two channels of buffer goodness for $40 + shipping
 

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