..the video is a bit too dramatic for my tastes. It reminds me of the time we had to pick out a casket...sans background music..
$8,400 Power Cord, $8,995 Power Distributor, I'm a flat earther with this stuff, BUT
- Thread starter Peter Breuninger
- Start date
There's a name I know. Worked at Sperry-Univac in the early 80's, but on disk controllers. I actually designed tape controllers for StorageTek in the 70's. Never seen a tape drive with tubes in it. Before my time. I worked on the vacuum-column models that did GCR recording.
Steve N.
The entire rear door on those 7tk's were a tube chassis. At RCA & CDC 9tk's were phase/gcr. Air col/bearings/capstan. My favorite were the later IBM cartridge drives.
If you want to know what power cords work, I can explain that. the principle is different from why power conditioners work.
Almost any amplifier or preamp has a power supply consisting of transformer, rectifiers and filter capacitors. Once the caps are fully charged, they don't discharge a whole lot between peaks of the AC waveform, where they get replenished. The rectifiers will only conduct (commutate) when the filter cap voltage is lower than that of the power transformer. So in essence, the rectifiers are only conducting on peaks of the AC waveform, and then only for brief periods of time.
This means that the power cord has to have some bandwidth (since the rectifiers may only be on for a few milliseconds, that means its a high frequency, despite being repeated 60 times a second) or the delivery of current will be curtailed. In addition, it should not have much in the way of a voltage drop either. I have seen a 2 volt drop on a power cord result in about a 30% loss of output power in a large power amp. Tell me you can't hear that- it was measurable with a simple DVM!!
Many will argue about the effects of the wire in the walls and what not. They are right. The wire in the walls makes a difference, but it so happens that ROMEX has pretty good HF response, so no worries. But if you live in an older building where the wiring is not up to code, you may find that you don't hear the effects of some highly revered cables. Its not their fault, its yours- fix the building wiring and the power cables will become more audible. That will be a good thing BTW.
In a preamp the effect of the cable might be less audible, especially if the preamp has a lot of regulation in its supplies, but otherwise the same principle still applies.
A weakness of power strips and inferior power conditioners is that they force you to use a common power cord for the entire system. IOW, the power cord for a power strip or power conditioner had better be pretty beefy, with good HF response in such cases. YMMV, as there are a variety of variables, but in a nutshell this is why power cords make a difference. Its simple physics y'all.
Do you have to spend a lot of money to get the best power cord? I don't think so. What is important is the overall current handling ability, and good HF response. That does not have to cost that much- its a matter of how the cable is built.
Almost any amplifier or preamp has a power supply consisting of transformer, rectifiers and filter capacitors. Once the caps are fully charged, they don't discharge a whole lot between peaks of the AC waveform, where they get replenished. The rectifiers will only conduct (commutate) when the filter cap voltage is lower than that of the power transformer. So in essence, the rectifiers are only conducting on peaks of the AC waveform, and then only for brief periods of time.
This means that the power cord has to have some bandwidth (since the rectifiers may only be on for a few milliseconds, that means its a high frequency, despite being repeated 60 times a second) or the delivery of current will be curtailed. In addition, it should not have much in the way of a voltage drop either. I have seen a 2 volt drop on a power cord result in about a 30% loss of output power in a large power amp. Tell me you can't hear that- it was measurable with a simple DVM!!
Many will argue about the effects of the wire in the walls and what not. They are right. The wire in the walls makes a difference, but it so happens that ROMEX has pretty good HF response, so no worries. But if you live in an older building where the wiring is not up to code, you may find that you don't hear the effects of some highly revered cables. Its not their fault, its yours- fix the building wiring and the power cables will become more audible. That will be a good thing BTW.
In a preamp the effect of the cable might be less audible, especially if the preamp has a lot of regulation in its supplies, but otherwise the same principle still applies.
A weakness of power strips and inferior power conditioners is that they force you to use a common power cord for the entire system. IOW, the power cord for a power strip or power conditioner had better be pretty beefy, with good HF response in such cases. YMMV, as there are a variety of variables, but in a nutshell this is why power cords make a difference. Its simple physics y'all.
Do you have to spend a lot of money to get the best power cord? I don't think so. What is important is the overall current handling ability, and good HF response. That does not have to cost that much- its a matter of how the cable is built.
Here is my experience with power cords (I used to design and sell them, but not anymore). I have performed a lot of simulations, measurements and listening tests on cords.
1) stranded copper cords can have much higher inductance than ROMEX - 6 foot stranded cord was measured to have the same inductance as 20+ feet of ROMEX
2) stranded bare copper should be avoided because of the copper oxide that forms
3) putting filtering on the earth ground wire is generally beneficial to minimize HF noise in the ground loops of the system
Steve N.
1) stranded copper cords can have much higher inductance than ROMEX - 6 foot stranded cord was measured to have the same inductance as 20+ feet of ROMEX
2) stranded bare copper should be avoided because of the copper oxide that forms
3) putting filtering on the earth ground wire is generally beneficial to minimize HF noise in the ground loops of the system
Steve N.
So, to be transparent, my power cord needs to have the current handling capability and bandwidth of the ROMEX in my walls. That certainly explains the $8400.
Tim
ROMEX is of course illegal as a power cord material because it uses solid core. But yeahSo, to be transparent, my power cord needs to have the current handling capability and bandwidth of the ROMEX in my walls. That certainly explains the $8400.
Tim
ROMEX is of course illegal as a power cord material because it uses solid core. But yeah
And exactly how limited is bandwidth of your basic 3 pin power cord?
http://www2.ing.unipi.it/~a008328/documenti/powerlines/PowerLineCom/Bibliografia/Rif36.pdf
Page two lists the basic electrical parameters of Romex, and a couple 18 gauge power cords. Sure looks like plenty of bandwidth either way.
Have not measured it myself in awhile, but the chart linked in my other post would indicate around 4 milli-henries for 20 ft.
Yep. I shouldn't let this stuff get under my skin, it'll just get me accused of being anti-audiophile. The truth is, I'm not. In fact, I'd love to be able to look an educated civilian or an electrical engineer in the eye, tell them I'm an audiophile, and not have them wonder if I'm a bit nuts. But it's hard because this sort of thing is all over the fringes of this hobby, and while I appreciate the expert testimony here, it wasn't necessary. All it takes is good sense to understand that if the wire between my amp and the wall is just an extension of a whole network, and if the power cord is up to the standards of the wire in the wall, of the wire in the ground outside my house, then it will have no impact on the system. If my power cable is not, quite literally, sub-standard, it will be transparent.
And so an $8400 power cord, or a $200 one, is absurd. I dunno, the $200 one may be very stylish and have some brand cache. The $8400 one is snake oil, plain and simple. The people selling that crap ought to be ashamed of themselves. My apologies that you're at the center of this, Peter. I recommend you get the cord you replaced tested. If the new one made that kind of difference, the old one was broken. Or maybe the act of unplugging and plugging removed enough oxidation to make better contact. There must be an explanation, but the superiority of the power cord isn't it
Tim
Hello. I am a skeptic too. But as electrical PE I now a little. Some of the power cords do help help eliminate noise on the power coming out of the wall. But I am a believer of power conditioning. I use ps audio regenerators and I get results I can hear and see.
Al
Al
Hello, Tim. I find it interesting to see you comment on something that I suspect you haven't ever heard. That being a $200.00 PC or an $8K PC. Now, if I am correct in this assumption then you are claiming snake oil in a hobby in which all of the pleasure derives from listening on a product(s) that you have never heard. If I am incorrect in this assumption, please forgive me.
It does, however, make sense IMO that one should not even be commenting about an audio products sound (or lack thereof) when said person has never heard it to begin with. I'm not trying to pester you, just understand why you (and perhaps others) would comment in such a strong way (calling something snake oil) on something they may not have even heard.
Please note, IME, a PC will not be a night and day difference like an amplifier upgrade. Some folks who have heard a PC upgrade don't notice a thing and that may be due to them not knowing what it is they are supposed to be looking for in a change, mainly because they hadn't accustomed them self to listening to those types of differences before. Things like exposed subtleties within the sound stage, a lowering of the noise floor that brings out more details, better attack, quicker transients, locational cues and the like. Most of the times when an amplifier is upgraded, the changes are quite apparent even to the novice ear. With a PC, not so much and for some folks with the right gear, 8K for the right PC in a particular location is not snake oil. It *can be* just what the doctor ordered.
Especially when one uses gear that responds well to PC upgrades.
Tom
It does, however, make sense IMO that one should not even be commenting about an audio products sound (or lack thereof) when said person has never heard it to begin with. I'm not trying to pester you, just understand why you (and perhaps others) would comment in such a strong way (calling something snake oil) on something they may not have even heard.
Please note, IME, a PC will not be a night and day difference like an amplifier upgrade. Some folks who have heard a PC upgrade don't notice a thing and that may be due to them not knowing what it is they are supposed to be looking for in a change, mainly because they hadn't accustomed them self to listening to those types of differences before. Things like exposed subtleties within the sound stage, a lowering of the noise floor that brings out more details, better attack, quicker transients, locational cues and the like. Most of the times when an amplifier is upgraded, the changes are quite apparent even to the novice ear. With a PC, not so much and for some folks with the right gear, 8K for the right PC in a particular location is not snake oil. It *can be* just what the doctor ordered.
Especially when one uses gear that responds well to PC upgrades.
Tom
Have tried a number of PC's and these are by far the best I have encountered and by a country mile . TV , no never tried . Just a "wonder" cord .
Wow they sure have technology in those cords. May I ask what brand and about how much for one. ? If you wish you could PM me. I have used and do use hi fi grade inter connects but not a power cord. I tried a ps audio jammy and it made a big difference and one unit can do many devices so it made sense. But enough people swear to cords I know there must be something to it.
I have a USB cord that uses a two batteries in it , audio quest something.
Al
I have a USB cord that uses a two batteries in it , audio quest something.
Al
These are the cords in question , Kraken from Stage 3 Concepts , look up the vid at the start .
They are the famous Kraken costing $8400 - no need to PM. I hope we do not get insulted just because we are debating them.
http://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/02/stage-iii-new-kraken-power-cord.html
http://www.stage3concepts.com/PRODUCTS_Kraken_page.htm
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