DSD comparison to PCM.

opus111 · Feb 17, 2013

mep said:
Please tell me what I am "so wrong" about.

You're right about a couple of things - for example currently produced NOS DACs do tend to measure bad by the usual set of measurements. That's telling me the usual set of measurements need updating to include some which more closely reflect what we hear in DACs. But its also telling me the manufacturers of NOS DACs aren't much concerned with pitching their DACs to the more objectivist inclined buyers. You're right about there being a lot of people listening filtered through what they believe (and perceive) about the various formats, rather than just with their ears.

MarinJim · Feb 17, 2013

Andre Marc said:
Not sure who you are talking about. I listen to RBCD, high rez PCM, and SACD. Its all good. I don't listen to formats,
I listen to music. There is no fracturing. The only ones discussing this crap are people who spend too much time on forums
and not listening to music. I probably listened to 30 albums while this thread has been droning on.

The vinyl crowd cracks me up when they wax poetic about Lps mastered from digital.

Amen.

NorthStar · Feb 17, 2013

-- In general, I prefer music recorded in DSD (SACD) over PCM (CD). :b
...From what my ears told me.

* Streaming and Downloading hi-rez audio (DSD and/or PCM); you guys know more than I do.

Bruce B · Feb 17, 2013

NorthStar said:
-- * Streaming and Downloading hi-rez audio (DSD and/or PCM); you guys know more than I do.

Welcome back Bob!!

opus111 · Feb 17, 2013

I'm confused (welcome back btw) because before your absence you mentioned you'd ordered an AMR. That's a native PCM box - why would you do that if you prefer SACD - why not spend your dollars on kit to improve your DSD experience?

NorthStar · Feb 17, 2013

Bruce B said:
Welcome back Bob!!

Merci Bruce. :b

opus111 said:
I'm confused (welcome back btw) because before your absence you mentioned you'd ordered an AMR. That's a native PCM box - why would you do that if you prefer SACD - why not spend your dollars on kit to improve your DSD experience?

Hi Richard, the deal didn't go through. ...And probably a god thing too. :b

P.S. Did I make a typo somewhere there?

opus111 · Feb 17, 2013

Yeah, 'god' not 'good'

I'm curious - why even contemplate such a 'deal' when your preferences are towards DSD?

NorthStar · Feb 17, 2013

-- Because you're the one in the first place who convinced me! ...By the power of your words and experiments and listening sessions.

Mike Lavigne · Feb 17, 2013

Bruce B said:
Welcome back Bob!!

+1.

good to see you back here.

opus111 · Feb 17, 2013

NorthStar said:
-- Because you're the one in the first place who convinced me! ...By the power of your words and experiments and listening sessions.

OK then so what changed from you wishing to find out for yourself, putting my words to the test?

NorthStar · Feb 17, 2013

opus111 said:
OK then so what changed from you wishing to find out for yourself, putting my words to the test?

...Further readings.

NorthStar · Feb 17, 2013

Mike Lavigne said:
+1.

good to see you back here.

Mike, you're always on my mind; merci beaucoup, pour tout. :b

opus111 · Feb 17, 2013

NorthStar said:
...Further readings.

For example?

NorthStar · Feb 17, 2013

opus111 said:
For example?

Some not so favorable reviews, and comments from other members in that quite elaborate thread, plus in other audio forums of the Internet, and all that other audio music jazz stuff. ...Analog, Digital, and All. ...The music recordings; tough to tell what's their true origins, and what it is that is in your music collection really.

It's a balance of all those readings Richard.

Let's say that for now SACD (DSD) is my number one music source (for quality sound to my own ears), then followed by CD (PCM; because I have much more CDs than LPs).
{I should also add hi-rez audio from Blu-ray music concerts, and DVDs with PCM stereo sound, including DVD-Audio with hi-rez audio.}

- This is a "Digital" thread here, so I won't go into analog vinyls and analog R2R tapes.

opus111 · Feb 18, 2013

I'm just curious here if there's stuff showing that what I wrote on here is mistaken and that I'm missing something important which 'turns the tables' so to speak, I'd like to know what that vital missing piece is. Seems from what you say and the way that you're waving vaguely in various directions that there isn't though

<edit> Just came across this interesting excerpt of a chapter from a newish technical book which goes into some depth on the theory of 1bit sigma-delta modulation. The bit particularly relevant to the drum I'm beating here (noise modulation) begins on p23.

If you begin to study it (and its far from being highly mathematical, the author is using graphical means by and large to illustrate his points) you may well be struck, as I was by the significant difference between the mathematical prediction for how noise-shaping loops behave, and the results of real implementations (simulations).

NorthStar · Feb 18, 2013

-- No Richard; it has nothing to do with you in particular. I just told you; it's an overall balance of everything.

I don't see you missing anything, I don't even think that you are reporting to yourself anything unimportant.

"Vague", you find me vague? In what sense? How exactly? ...In regard to your beliefs?
You are not paranoid are you?

P.S. Richard, just in case, always recheck my above posts; I have a strong habit of editing (perfecting) them.

opus111 · Feb 18, 2013

Bob if you read what I wrote a bit more carefully, you may well discover that I didn't call you (personally) 'vague' - rather the references you made were vague ones. I asked for an example, you provided things which gestured in the general direction of things without referring to anything at all specific (like a link to an article or review for example).

NorthStar · Feb 18, 2013

Richard, I am out of this thread now; it don't feel right.

manisandher · Feb 18, 2013

Bruce B said:
If you have a beef with HDtracks, stand in line.

Hey Bruce, I have no beef with HDTracks, or indeed with you... anyone in the pursuit of better sound in good in my eyes. I just thought that that particular RMAF session was eye-opening. FWIW, if I were Chad, I would stick with offering remasters on vinyl and wouldn't touch DSD downloads with a barge pole. 24/192 remasters captured with a true non-oversampling mutli-bit ADC would be great, but I know that's just not going to happen - only Reference Recordings are doing this, and the music isn't always my cup of tea.

Ultimately, I agree with what so many here are saying. Go with the format that sounds good to you. I tried DSD... and I mean really tried. OK, I didn't go as far as Grimm or EMM gear, but Korg, Tascam and Mytek are supposed to be pretty good. It's not for me. Not my SACD rips, nor my own DSD vinyl recordings nor indeed DSD downloads. DSD just doesn't do it for me. (And I'm really sorry about not getting on with the Blue Coast DSD downloads - whenever I've seen Cookie on Youtube etc, she comes across as just the sweetest person.)

Mani.

manisandher · Feb 18, 2013

dallasjustice said:
Keith Johnson lectured a few years ago at RMAF. He covers alot of material, only 30% of which I can comprehend. If you start the video I linked to at 30 minute mark he starts in about jitter and how sdm dacs and ladder dacs are affected by jitter differently. He also shows some nuclear scope shots of jitter.

Yep, phenomenal talk. He's a bit slow at getting going, but then just comes out with one deep insight after the other. But to him it all seems so obvious - he even suggests that he's kept things at a basic level.

The bit about vinyl having 120dB dynamics is a bit hard to swallow, but he's no idiot (let's face it, he's probably smarter than all of us on these boards put together) and I think he means 'in a non-real, ideal case'. He's obviously started his calculation with the size of the information on the grooves and has taken things from there. It kind of reminds me of my Physics 101 where you consider the interaction of only two atoms. Well, this simplicity never happens in reality but we still use it to try to understand things.

Mani.

DSD comparison to PCM.

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