DSD comparison to PCM.

opus111

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So you played back the 192/24 through the AKM4399s in the Marantz? If so, its not native PCM. A very long way from native PCM going through an S-D modulator and those on-chip CMOS opamps - together they'd make PCM sound very similar to DSD with all their added noise modulation.
 

dallasjustice

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The very decision to describe and the selection/order of the description require cognitive processing. You may be able to attend to the stimulus pattern (chair) without premeditation but choosing to act in response requires it. Responding with a shreik to the sudden appearance of a snake requires the recognition of the object as a snake (infratemporal cortex) and then the association of that awareness with fear (amygdala) may be so rapid as to precede any "premeditated" response.

Premeditation implies a lot.

Malcolm Gladwell? Wait, let me throw up first.

"To me it's all just mental masturbation." Sammy Hagar, "There's only one way to rock"
 

Kal Rubinson

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Kal.
That is interesting about expletives.
Please could you briefly describe how they differ to the usual cognitive process of hearing and speaking.
Much appreciated
Orb
Well, hearing is an input and, so, has little to do with the process and not any more than with any other input, including one's current mood. However, there are stimuli, including internal ones, that are highly associated with emotional responses and the expletive responses are not generated by the same mechanism as is normal speech. Patients with expressive aphasias cannot encode (formulate) coherent speech regardless of their conscious awareness of the situation and are nearly mute. However, they still are capable of generating expletives in response to emotionally-corellated stimuli.
 

edorr

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The very decision to describe and the selection/order of the description require cognitive processing. You may be able to attend to the stimulus pattern (chair) without premeditation but choosing to act in response requires it. Responding with a shreik to the sudden appearance of a snake requires the recognition of the object as a snake (infratemporal cortex) and then the association of that awareness with fear (amygdala) may be so rapid as to precede any "premeditated" response.

Premeditation implies a lot.

Opus111 was referring to premeditation in the context of "describing in language" of an observation, not "acting in response" to that observation. While you can argue the latter usually involves premeditation (i.e. a conscious thought process) the former in many cases does not.

However, I think your example of the fear driven response to a snake is way to restrictive as an example of non-premeditated response.

There are many examples of unlearned responses that do not involve premditation, for example the reflex to catch a falling object.

Secondly, there are learned non-premidated responses. I play squash and hit the ball without premeditation some of the time (mostly the defensive shots). The same is true for a a baseball player catching a ball coming at him at 90mph.

The neurological process of each of these examples is probably different, but they have in common a lack of conscious thought process preceding the response (i.e premeditation).
 

edorr

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So you played back the 192/24 through the AKM4399s in the Marantz? If so, its not native PCM. A very long way from native PCM going through an S-D modulator and those on-chip CMOS opamps - together they'd make PCM sound very similar to DSD with all their added noise modulation.

I'll take your word for it....:)
 

opus111

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The neurological process of each of these examples is probably different, but they have in common a lack of conscious thought process preceding the response (i.e premeditation).

Yep - the aim with sport is to enter the state called 'flow' where things arise and we attend to them without any conscious thought. As Maverick says in 'Top Gun' in relation to air-to-air combat - 'If you think, you're dead'.
 

Bruce B

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1.Know how the recording was done.
2.Know what kind of DAC you are listening to.
3.Hear the same live performance captured on a DSD DAC (DSD128) and Multi-Bit DAC(24/352.8) at the same time.
4.Play both files back: PCM file on multi-bit DAC, DSD file on SDM DAC in the same system.
5.Decide which one is closer to the performance.

I haven't done that. I am not aware of anyone else here having done that.

DSD is not better than PCM.

I've already done this. I captured a studio session from a SSL 9k board in 3 formats. I can play those same files at the same time through the different converters. I'm really tired of doing this because I always end up with the same conclusion...
 

dallasjustice

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I've already done this. I captured a studio session from a SSL 9k board in 3 formats. I can play those same files at the same time through the different converters. I'm really tired of doing this because I always end up with the same conclusion...
3 formats, but same converter? Which converter did you use?
 

TBone

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In my area, the vast majority of audiophiles have long considered DSD a redundant technology.

tb1
 

Bruce B

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3 formats, but same converter? Which converter did you use?

DAD AX24. Winston had me capture in different formats.
The Korg MR2000s, Tascam DV-RA1000 and the EMM Labs ADC8IV were also used. The studio used a Digi 192 and an ATR-102 for capture as well.
 

dallasjustice

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DAD AX24. Winston had me capture in different formats.
The Korg MR2000s, Tascam DV-RA1000 and the EMM Labs ADC8IV were also used. The studio used a Digi 192 and an ATR-102 for capture as well.

Which one of those converters is multi-bit?

Don't you have the MSB AtoD? Why not compare the MSB AtoD vs. the EMM Labs? That would be a fair fight, IMO. I don't think your format comparisons are done yet. :D
 

Bruce B

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Which one of those converters is multi-bit?

Don't you have the MSB AtoD? Why not compare the MSB AtoD vs. the EMM Labs? That would be a fair fight, IMO. I don't think your format comparisons are done yet. :D

I did compare the MSB A/D to the EMM Labs A/D to the Korg MR2000s A/D to the DAD AX24 A/D to the Weiss ADC2 A/D to the Grimm A/D.... Let me set this up for you.

We were commissioned to transfer all of Dave Wilson's tapes for later release to download. As like Winston, Dave is a stickler for attention to detail. When we first started the project, Dave wanted a sample of our work as well as HIS choice of transfer chain. We recorded from a modified Studer A80RC MkII into the selection of converters. The MSB was recorded at 352.8kHz and 176.4kHz, The Weiss was recorded at 176.4kHz. The EMM, DAD and Grimm were recorded at DSD64fs and the Korg was used for DSD128fs.

We did sample rate conversions of the DSD material to 176.4kHz and the 352.8kHz sample was downsampled to 176.4 We had samples of 176.4 natively from the Weiss and MSB. We put them all up on the server blindly, labeling them just as Sample 1, Sample 2 and so on..... Even with a sample rate conversion, the Wilsons, Dave, Sheryl Lee, and Daryl all chose the DSD files. E'nuf said!!
 

dallasjustice

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I did compare the MSB A/D to the EMM Labs A/D to the Korg MR2000s A/D to the DAD AX24 A/D to the Weiss ADC2 A/D to the Grimm A/D.... Let me set this up for you.

We were commissioned to transfer all of Dave Wilson's tapes for later release to download. As like Winston, Dave is a stickler for attention to detail. When we first started the project, Dave wanted a sample of our work as well as HIS choice of transfer chain. We recorded from a modified Studer A80RC MkII into the selection of converters. The MSB was recorded at 352.8kHz and 176.4kHz, The Weiss was recorded at 176.4kHz. The EMM, DAD and Grimm were recorded at DSD64fs and the Korg was used for DSD128fs.

We did sample rate conversions of the DSD material to 176.4kHz and the 352.8kHz sample was downsampled to 176.4 We had samples of 176.4 natively from the Weiss and MSB. We put them all up on the server blindly, labeling them just as Sample 1, Sample 2 and so on..... Even with a sample rate conversion, the Wilsons, Dave, Sheryl Lee, and Daryl all chose the DSD files. E'nuf said!!

Using which DtoA did they compare your files?
 

Orb

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Well, hearing is an input and, so, has little to do with the process and not any more than with any other input, including one's current mood. However, there are stimuli, including internal ones, that are highly associated with emotional responses and the expletive responses are not generated by the same mechanism as is normal speech. Patients with expressive aphasias cannot encode (formulate) coherent speech regardless of their conscious awareness of the situation and are nearly mute. However, they still are capable of generating expletives in response to emotionally-corellated stimuli.

Ah excellent that was what I thought but more from a intuitive-guess and thanks for the further example of patients with expressive aphasias.
So therefore coming back on subject a person describing the emotion-feelings generated of said music would overcome some (appreciate not all) aspects of the premeditation in the context describing it spontaneously.
Of course not really a great reference point though describing the music by the emotions it generates at it would be very specific and extremely limited in scope (only to the stimuli such as music or films I assume).

Apologies for going a bit sideways to the general point of the thread, but definitely interesting to know.
Thanks again
Orb
 

mep

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Using which DtoA did they compare your files?

It never ends...

Is there anyone here on this forum who owns PCM files of any stripe (and by that I mean 16/44.1 up to 24/192) and also owns DSD files and the software and D/A converter to play them back who prefers PCM to DSD? And if the answer is no, you don't own any DSD files and the software and D/A converter to play them back, your answer doesn't count. Second-hand accounts from third parties don't mean much. "I have a friend who has a friend who heard from his friend..."
 

manisandher

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Is there anyone here on this forum who owns PCM files of any stripe (and by that I mean 16/44.1 up to 24/192) and also owns DSD files and the software and D/A converter to play them back who prefers PCM to DSD?

Yep, I prefer PCM over DSD.

A few months ago I embarked on a project to digitize some of the rarer and more expensive vinyl that I have. I set up a small 'studio' with both DSD and PCM recording capability. (Incidentally, the 'studio' has been built around a Faraday cage, has two 5KVA balanced transformers and an isolated 5-Ohm earthing system. Where possible, all equipment power supplies sit outside the 'studio' to minimise RFI.)

I really didn't want to record everything twice, so first went about figuring out whether I'd go for DSD or PCM. I tried DSD64 on the Tascam DV-RA1000HD [multi-bit S-D ADC], DSD128 on the KORG MR1000 [true 1-bit S-D ADC] (with Paul Hynes linear PS) and PCM24/192 on the Pacific Microsonics Model Two [true multi-bit non-oversampling ADC @4fs rates].

Played back on the Mytek DAC [multi-bit S-D DAC] (using HQPlayer set to DirectSDM), the DSD files sounded better than the PCM files. However, played back on a Phasure NOS1 DAC [true multi-bit non-oversampling DAC] (using XXHighEnd) the PCM files trounced the DSD files (obviously still being played back on the Mytek).

To my ears, there is something fundamentally wrong with DSD's top end. The massive noise-shaping sure helps low down, but at a massive, massive expense up top... IMHO.

The Mytek DAC is already sold (UPS coming to collect tomorrow). The Tascam will be for sale soon. The little KORG I'll keep because it might come in handy for portable recording in the future. And it's incredibly cute.

Mani.

Edit: Pic of 'studio' attached.
Studio.jpg
 

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mep

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OK Mani, your opinion is duly noted. I will let Bruce chime in on your recording/playback chain as I believe that Bruce just heard the Phasure DAC and put it up for sale. I have said this before and I will say it again, I think that compared to DSD, PCM sounds wowie-zowie. And by that I mean that the dynamics appear to be exaggerated compared to DSD and they will quickly wear on your nerves because the dynamics come at the expense of the music itself which to me sounds threadbare compared to DSD. I don't need to hear thundering bass and screaming highs in order to be impressed and think that PCM "trounced" DSD.

As for hearing "massive, massive" problems on the top end of DSD, I have no idea what comprises the rest of your system for you to make that statement.
 

manisandher

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The rest of my system? Well it's changed so much since I bought a Sony SCD-1 and then a Marantz SA-1 well over 10 years ago. So I've arrived at my opinion on DSD with over 10 years of listening to SACDs and more recently DFF rips from a PS3 and DSD downloads with a variety of systems. Over this time period I've so much wanted to like DSD but have just come to the conclusion that it's not for me. Interestingly, I was at a friend's place a couple of years ago who had the then latest DCS stack. Even there I thought SACDs sounded awful - totally dead.

Mani.
 

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