Showdown; Direct Drive verses Belt Drive - two oldies go at it

kach22i

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Showdown; Direct Drive verses Belt Drive - two oldies go at it

Technics SL-3200 direct drive verses Dual CS 503-1 belt drive




Technics SL-3200 direct drive TT (non-quartz) with Grado F-1+

Old Thread with pictures:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?8027-Technics-SL-3200

Felt mat; plus Sota clamp equals congested upper midrange, and a smaller stage than it should be. It’s as if the room sounds over dampened or overly treated with sound panels, especially between the speakers. A lack of depth, very mid-Fi sounding, a tad sluggish and lethargic. I double checked the speed on the strobe light and made an ever so slight adjustment just in case.

Felt mat without Sota clamp; is more open and better paced, less like it’s batteries are running down or like an instrument slightly out of tune. It just didn’t like that clamp at all with the felt mat in use.

No felt mat; even better, it’s opening up and the bass while not quite dynamic as the Dual, it is profound without being overbearing or muddy.

No felt mat with Sota clamp; is the best sound out of this turntable by a far measure, getting to the higher end sound at long last. The bass is dry and tight, the midrange has adequate punch, and the upper end does not offend.

Overall, the potential of this turntable to overtake the Dual is there. However the Dual has been extensively modified over a number of years (to admittedly my own tastes), and has a $400 Grado Sonata cartridge, and $300 Cardas Neutral Reference interconnect.

The Technics is burdened with stock interconnects, female to female adapters and new not yet broken in patch wires (pretty good quality and a great value) which I bought for a couple of bucks on sale over the Internet. In addition, the ground wire which was also jumped and extended had to be played with to avoid hum.


Dual CS 503-1 belt drive TT with Grado Sonta and Audioquest SorboGel mat

Old threads with photos – below:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...y-TT-gained-eight-pounds-today&highlight=Dual

http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...-Turntable-Mods-Bolt-on-Add-on&highlight=Dual

About the Dual, shouty or hyperactive compared to the more recessed and at times self assured Technics, perhaps it’s running a little fast? If using the bass and lower midrange levels as an equal measure of loudness, the upper end is louder than the Technics.

It’s sort of like it’s trying a bit too hard, the energy levels are a bit animated at times. The room acoustics seemed to have shifted from medium to a more hard and lively environment. This is compared with the sources of FM radio and CD’s which were used to tune the room initially (not to mention use of a newly built audio rack). In the past I’ve used both CD’s and LP’s to tune the room’s acoustics as there is some differences to be noted. Typically the CD’s are a bit brighter and splashy, but this is not the case this time.

Open air and great soundstage, as forward as you can get with electrostatic loudspeakers (yet just right), at least from what I’ve experienced.

You end up following the tom tom’s in the drum kit verses the guitar bass line as the Technics will lead you into doing.

The Dual bass is more plump and full bodied and believable, not as dry as the Technics. I’d characterize it as rich and punchy.


Conclusion:

Overall speaking; if I could combine the best of the two turntables, I’d take most of the energy and all of the openness of the Dual with the steady pace and assuredness of the guitar bass line found with the Technics.

Neither turntable could ever be modified to the point of being truly “Hi-End”, however great pleasure can be derived from them “as is”.

If I wanted to just sit down and play an album, I’d hook up the Dual, no question about it.


Disclaimer:

I have to check the anti-skating on both turntables. Also I’d like to run my Cardas LP to defrag the system.

The biggest flaw in this preliminary review? I used one LP, one song on a fairly processed recording. The first song on Crowed House’s self titled album, the song title is “World Where You Live”. I just happened to grab it, it’s not even on my list of reference LP’s which I typically use, but there you have it, my initial impressions.
 

daytona600

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never heard a technics 3200 but lots of uk users of the SL1200/1210 have super modified decks.

external power supplies , new bearing , platters & top end arms with moving coils
some cost well over $5,000
 

kach22i

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never heard a technics 3200 but lots of uk users of the SL1200/1210 have super modified decks.

external power supplies , new bearing , platters & top end arms with moving coils
some cost well over $5,000
Based on my research when first bought the Technics four months ago, I recall thinking the SL-3200 is an SL-1200 but in lieu of crystal quartz speed timing element for regulation, it uses a slower reacting, slower correcting analog algorithm. The human detection of and audible distortion of various systems is a source of great debate. However, despite the quartz's flaws it is generally considered superior to the version I have.

There is much potential in this model of Technics, but my energies will be going into a "from scratch" design. I'm learning what I can and using this TT as a case study. It's just not up to being a parts donor for my next project.

The Technics has some rubbery felt covered feet. I might try putting some short brass cylinders I have lying around under the chassis to tighten up/speed up and open up the sound a bit. Need to get it off those soft feet, soft feet, soft sound.
 

Johnny Vinyl

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The technic sl1200 resurgence is so amusing to me , mid-fi at best when new , is now so miraculously hi-end ..:)

It's part "nostalgia" IMO, much like the early 70's Japanese amps. I know, because I still have a few of those pieces and had them as my main system until recently. In fairness however, the 2 tables mentioned can certainly provide one with plenty of satisfaction, and I'd say George gave a pretty good analysis of each table's strengths and weaknesses. I'd also pick the Dual.
 

kach22i

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kach22i

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BRASS ATTACK!!!

Determined to get something more out of the Technics, I took the brass plates and disks off of my tuner and placed them under and on the turntable.

Stage one:
http://s184.beta.photobucket.com/user/kach22i/library/Stereo?



The three brass donuts under the turntable worked. They sped up the tempo a bit, making the tom-toms equal with the bass guitar and projecting the vocals out of the muck they were stuck in. Still no where near the air and liveliness of the Dual, but a step in the right direction.



Placing more brass donuts on the top deck of the plinth increased the air to the point that the lead vocals were now pried off of the background vocals.



Using even more brass unleashed more dynamics from this stodgy turntable. And it was no longer out of tune on a portion of the song about 3/4's of the way which has several tempo shifts via a synthesizer or something.

Still no cigar, but a huge improvement, it's actually listenable now.

I think a direct turntable done right would be a wonderful thing, but we are not there yet. I need to get my DB Systems protractor out and check the alignment of this cartridge for one thing.

I've also downloaded and printed out a strobe pattern from the Vinyl Engine website to verify the speed of the Dual.

http://www.vinylengine.com/library.shtml

I'm not sure what to do if the speed is off on the Dual. Perhaps adjust the line voltage with a Variac to alter the speed?
 

daytona600

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Sep 9, 2012
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Does anyone know if the Achromat is made of HDPE - High Density Polyethylene which is a thermoplastic?

no idea , website has no mention. he is the guy that started with plastic platters with the pink triangle
he makes plastic plateers for the technics as well

I'd go with brass first, but the increase in weight with a given equal height matching the original rubber mat may over stress the motor and bearing.

you can get brass platters & mats for the technics & uprated bearings for the weight

http://www.mikenewaudio.com/platter.php
 

kach22i

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you can get brass platters & mats for the technics & uprated bearings for the weight

http://www.mikenewaudio.com/platter.php
Interesting link, thanks.

On my model the platter does not come off without taking the top part of the motor off with it, as it is an integral part of the assembly to help eliminate resonances which two separate parts could cause. This limits what I can do with it, as the platter is not simply removable.
 

mep

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Kachi-I'm not quite sure of the point to all of what you are doing here. Cheap direct drive tables never sounded as good as belt drive tables and that's why the Dual sounds better. The SL-3200 was a cheap direct drive table and was far down the mountain it terms of what Technics had achieved. Sony, Denon, Pioneer, and Technics all made some very serious DD tables, but the SL-3200 isn't one of them. The Dual you are monkeying around with is in the same category when it comes to belt drive tables. It wouldn't take much in terms of dollars spent on the used market to purchase a turntable that would show you the futility of putting lipstick on a pig and sending her out on a runway with supermodels and hoping the pig could compete.
 

kach22i

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Kachi-I'm not quite sure of the point to all of what you are doing here.
I getting some first hand experience with a direct drive turntable. I've never owned one before and thought that I might be missing out on something.

I think I now know some of the basic characteristics of each approach, even though they are both "pigs". These pigs are useful in that they fully expose weakness which designers had to resolve before going up the food chain.

Direct Drive: The designer must fight to open up the sound stage including the mid and upper frequencies. The speed, tempo, energy or excitement level has got to be juiced up or prevented from being drained in the first place. The bass is the strong point of a DD.

Belt Drive: The designer must fight to gain some bass or heft, and prevent the sound from becoming too bouncy, thin and a caricature of it's self. The sense of air and openness being it's strong point.

Direct drive is like a sealed box speaker, and belt drive is like a horn speaker if I were to make another analogy.
 

mep

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I getting some first hand experience with a direct drive turntable. I've never owned one before and thought that I might be missing out on something.

Kachi-I would contend that you are missing out on something, but you will never know if you only listen to tables the caliber of the SL-3200.
 

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