Let the controversy ensue 
http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php...e-eight-things-you-need-to-know-from-ces-2013
http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php...e-eight-things-you-need-to-know-from-ces-2013
The Eight Things You Need to Know From CES 2013
- Thread starter Jeff Fritz
- Start date
Let the controversy ensue
http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php...e-eight-things-you-need-to-know-from-ces-2013
5. More nonsense from the stratosphere and reviewers who support it. While at CES 2013, I wrote about the exorbitantly priced Neodio Origine CD player. The SoundStage! Network’s Hans Wetzel wrote about the MAD (in more ways than one) speakers he heard there. No one can justify these products’ prices. I mean, really, how many $38,000 CD players with limited functionality will you buy this year? And as for the hobbyist loudspeaker manufacturer -- you know, those guys who get out the latest Madisound catalog when “engineering” their next model -- do you really think they can compete anymore? A few reviewers will promote these products even though they don’t have two nickels to rub together themselves and would therefore never, in a million years, be in the market for them at anywhere close to retail price. So these models will get some press. But let’s face it: the probability of long-term survival for some of these companies is extremely low, in my estimation. And it needs to be.
Yes, Jeff #5 has been a hot topic around here.
Let the controversy ensue
http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php...e-eight-things-you-need-to-know-from-ces-2013
#7 and #8...spot on.
That was actually rational. You need to go back to hyperbole school. The entry level Magicos look very nice.
Jeff,
Did you compare the Burmester and darTZeel against the Ayre? Did anyone else?
I know you don't like the daTZeel, for some reason I can't understand, but why pick on these two brands, in order to promote a third?
If you like Ayre, pick one of their products and review it. Want to prove how good they are? Put them up against another amp, in your room, and compare it.
And in case you want the answer, yes, Hervé is more talented than Hansen, at least for amps
Just for reference, I haven't found an amp costing 2x of my darTZeel that I'd rather have. So, in a way, it's actually CHEAP for me, since it performs better than amps costing much more.
If you'd rather have the Ayre at a fraction of the cost of the darTZeel, that's great for you, put it down in a review/comparison between the two! But empty pieces like what you wrote doesn't prove a point, it just boosts one brand while putting down two others.
And that Wadia? I won't even mention how ugly it is, as that is particular to each one. But there's very little innovative in it, unlike the Devialet, though I agree that it is only the first of the many "me too" copycats that will likely appear.
alexandre
Did you compare the Burmester and darTZeel against the Ayre? Did anyone else?
I know you don't like the daTZeel, for some reason I can't understand, but why pick on these two brands, in order to promote a third?
If you like Ayre, pick one of their products and review it. Want to prove how good they are? Put them up against another amp, in your room, and compare it.
And in case you want the answer, yes, Hervé is more talented than Hansen, at least for amps
Just for reference, I haven't found an amp costing 2x of my darTZeel that I'd rather have. So, in a way, it's actually CHEAP for me, since it performs better than amps costing much more.
If you'd rather have the Ayre at a fraction of the cost of the darTZeel, that's great for you, put it down in a review/comparison between the two! But empty pieces like what you wrote doesn't prove a point, it just boosts one brand while putting down two others.
And that Wadia? I won't even mention how ugly it is, as that is particular to each one. But there's very little innovative in it, unlike the Devialet, though I agree that it is only the first of the many "me too" copycats that will likely appear.
alexandre
Hmmm
The $7950 Sure VX-5 could be better than $20 - 40k Dartzeel, Burmester and alike others ??
Not sure how this comment holds any credibility unless as Alex has mentioned - they have been compared. Us guys that spend our hard earned cash would be shot down if we said could sound better without listening.
Anyone compared?
I guess Jeff believes the VX-5 could sound better than big brother Ayre kx-r's using his logic?
I really wanted to love the KX-r's when I listened to them. Compared to the D'Agostino Momentum stereo amp, the KX-r's were a bit lifeless and nowhere near as enjoyable. It would seem that the Ayre amps must be driven balanced to sound great? The DAG amp just sounded better balanced and single ended.
Does the VX-r sound better then the KX-r's? This sounds like the listening test Jeff should be doing first.
The $7950 Sure VX-5 could be better than $20 - 40k Dartzeel, Burmester and alike others ??
Not sure how this comment holds any credibility unless as Alex has mentioned - they have been compared. Us guys that spend our hard earned cash would be shot down if we said could sound better without listening.
Anyone compared?
I guess Jeff believes the VX-5 could sound better than big brother Ayre kx-r's using his logic?
I really wanted to love the KX-r's when I listened to them. Compared to the D'Agostino Momentum stereo amp, the KX-r's were a bit lifeless and nowhere near as enjoyable. It would seem that the Ayre amps must be driven balanced to sound great? The DAG amp just sounded better balanced and single ended.
Does the VX-r sound better then the KX-r's? This sounds like the listening test Jeff should be doing first.
Jeff,
Did you compare the Burmester and darTZeel against the Ayre? Did anyone else?
I know you don't like the daTZeel, for some reason I can't understand, but why pick on these two brands, in order to promote a third?
If you like Ayre, pick one of their products and review it. Want to prove how good they are? Put them up against another amp, in your room, and compare it.
And in case you want the answer, yes, Hervé is more talented than Hansen, at least for amps
Just for reference, I haven't found an amp costing 2x of my darTZeel that I'd rather have. So, in a way, it's actually CHEAP for me, since it performs better than amps costing much more.
If you'd rather have the Ayre at a fraction of the cost of the darTZeel, that's great for you, put it down in a review/comparison between the two! But empty pieces like what you wrote doesn't prove a point, it just boosts one brand while putting down two others.
And that Wadia? I won't even mention how ugly it is, as that is particular to each one. But there's very little innovative in it, unlike the Devialet, though I agree that it is only the first of the many "me too" copycats that will likely appear.
alexandre
I can certainly understand your reaction. But if you read the section closely . . . I picked the new Ayre precisely because no one has heard it yet. The question posed is why would we assume that the more expensive product is better? Is that assumption based entirely on price? Is that wise to assume, particularly when we know that part of that price difference is due to exchange rates and the distributor tier? How do those factors equate to better sound quality? They don't.
I don't know if the Ayre is better or not, and neither do you. But if you assume it is not, and that assumption is based on price, even partially, then you've helped me prove my point.
A point I have tried (apparently without any success) in another thread: We audiophiles contiue to equate performance with price. The more expensive the better in our world view.
What I take away from Jeff's article is this ........
IOW a strong case to "buy American" based on exchange rate and distributor
IOW a strong case to "buy American" based on exchange rate and distributor
You're the one assuming things. I haven't assumed anything. For all I know, the Ayre could run circles around my darTZeel. And, as a reviewer, it's your duty to pick these jewels out, and bring them to our attention. Not write sensationalistic articles like the one you did. Sorry.
LOL and I try to point out that there are those with the perspective price is not the primary high end variable, because entry level high end IS always improving
Case in point I feel Jeff makes, including the point about the anomalies that are not really high end even though they try to claim their product as such.
What I find intriguing, those complaining about high end prices NEVER praise entry high end or the attempts of Magico with their S1, Ayre, Wilson Audio Sophia3 compared to its higher priced models (requires to be a fan of WA - love/hate with a fair few consumers),etc.
At CES entry/accessible level high end products were also presented by Nagra, Ayre, Oracle, Burmester, T&A, Magico,Audio Research, Krell, Wadia, Classe,etc,etc,etc.
We have a thread over 38 pages, and nothing comparable about how great the entry high end is these days
So those that complain seem to fix on price and anomolies/statement models rather than the positives of the competitive/accessible high end and how financially accessible seriously well engineered-developed products are these days.
Yeah Steve the Atlantic/distributor-exchange rate-taxes/etc scenario makes it very very difficult to buy from across "the pond".
For myself this means it makes it very challenging to consider Ayre and its US peers over here in UK compared to the European manufacturers.
Sad but true for both sides of the Atlantic, especially when considering longer term and possible trade-in,etc.
Does generate challenges for manufacturers to compete on a level playing field in each region.
Cheers
Orb
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Some interesting points made here. I happen to believe that many ( perhaps most) a'philes ( and perhaps consumer's in general) also believe that the newer the design and piece is, the better it has to be. So, along with the higher the price the better, we also have-- newer is always better.
I have NEVER understood these mantra's...because it is so very easy in this hobby to simply determine which is better....you use your ears. PERIOD.
I have NEVER understood these mantra's...because it is so very easy in this hobby to simply determine which is better....you use your ears. PERIOD.
It amazes me how owners of expensive gear get their feathers ruffled if you challenge their choice in gear. Owners and dealers are the first to post in defense of their gear.
I think it's a great article that brought up a few key points we have in our hobby. Things must be said and sometimes the truth hurts!
I think it's a great article that brought up a few key points we have in our hobby. Things must be said and sometimes the truth hurts!
LOL and I try to point out that there are those with the perspective price is not the primary high end variable, because entry level high end IS always improving
Case in point I feel Jeff makes, including the point about the anomalies that are not really high end even though they try to claim their product as such.
What I find intriguing, those complaining about high end prices NEVER praise entry high end or the attempts of Magico with their S1, Ayre, Wilson Audio Sophia3 compared to its higher priced models (requires to be a fan of WA - love/hate with a fair few consumers),etc.
At CES entry/accessible level high end products were also presented by Nagra, Ayre, Oracle, Burmester, T&A, Magico,Audio Research, Krell, Wadia, Classe,etc,etc,etc.
We have a thread over 38 pages, and nothing comparable about how great the entry high end is these days
So those that complain seem to fix on price and anomolies/statement models rather than the positives of the competitive/accessible high end and how financially accessible seriously well engineered-developed products are these days.
Yeah Steve the Atlantic/distributor-exchange rate-taxes/etc scenario makes it very very difficult to buy from across "the pond".
For myself this means it makes it very challenging to consider Ayre and its US peers over here in UK compared to the European manufacturers.
Sad but true for both sides of the Atlantic, especially when considering longer term and possible trade-in,etc.
Does generate challenges for manufacturers to compete on a level playing field in each region.
Cheers
Orb
The bolded caught my attention, and I'd really like to know what those of you with truly high-end gear and the experiences with them to define, in terms of price, what "entry-level high end" is!
I liked the article (read it some days back) and shows a clear picture of the state-of-the-arts regarding hi-end audio, well done!
As for the price = performance debate here, I am sure no one supports it fully here, and end ups (again) in preferences, affiliations and "hours" invested in this hobby.
As for the price = performance debate here, I am sure no one supports it fully here, and end ups (again) in preferences, affiliations and "hours" invested in this hobby.
John,
tbh there is not a fixed-determined price for entry high end because there are a diverse range of manufacturers with diverse engineering developments-implementations and processes.
As I mentioned any of those above have reasonable up to $16k components as their entry range, but all are high end.
As Jeff mentions in one of his articles relating to Ayre high end can be accessible.
Some would still think Magico S1 and the Crystal Cable Mini speaker is too expensive as an entry model from both manufacturers, but this ignores the engineering and tools involved in the development and manufacturer of both speakers.
Nagra here in the UK now has a tube preamp with stunning measurements costing £7.5k, or how about for North America something like the McIntosh MC275 v6 amp, or DAC/preamp combo such as Classe.
It is possible to find "true high end" possibly $4k-$5k upwards IMO, while other entry models for some manufacturers between $15k-$20k.
Some DACs are high end at much lower prices than this tbh and represent incredible value (subjective preference comes into play more than price) and I am the first to accept my DAC is not value for money in comparison to such products from T+A and others.
Nearly all of those are valid and not necessarily overexpensive when considering all variables, but there are also examples of products that should not be claimed as high end or necessarily have a high price.
A model below "Ref" can still be high end and does not begin with say a Ref5 from Audio Research (there is say LS27).
Cheers
Orb
tbh there is not a fixed-determined price for entry high end because there are a diverse range of manufacturers with diverse engineering developments-implementations and processes.
As I mentioned any of those above have reasonable up to $16k components as their entry range, but all are high end.
As Jeff mentions in one of his articles relating to Ayre high end can be accessible.
Some would still think Magico S1 and the Crystal Cable Mini speaker is too expensive as an entry model from both manufacturers, but this ignores the engineering and tools involved in the development and manufacturer of both speakers.
Nagra here in the UK now has a tube preamp with stunning measurements costing £7.5k, or how about for North America something like the McIntosh MC275 v6 amp, or DAC/preamp combo such as Classe.
It is possible to find "true high end" possibly $4k-$5k upwards IMO, while other entry models for some manufacturers between $15k-$20k.
Some DACs are high end at much lower prices than this tbh and represent incredible value (subjective preference comes into play more than price) and I am the first to accept my DAC is not value for money in comparison to such products from T+A and others.
Nearly all of those are valid and not necessarily overexpensive when considering all variables, but there are also examples of products that should not be claimed as high end or necessarily have a high price.
A model below "Ref" can still be high end and does not begin with say a Ref5 from Audio Research (there is say LS27).
Cheers
Orb
Orb-I don't agree with the definition of "entry level" high-end gear that you gave John. I do think you did a good job of defining entry level by how the manufacturer's who make stratospherically priced gear would define it. If you told someone who wanted to get a good stereo system that a good entry level preamp would cost them $15K, they would probably look at you like you had three eyeballs and maybe lose interest in the hobby real quick. $15K is more than a Ref 5SE, and I don't think anyone would call that linestage an "entry level" product.
Your definition of entry level high end is basically the cheapest priced gear from a manufacturer who makes very expensive high-end products. The definition should be much broader and should cover gear that provides sound quality that moves you inside the tent of high-end sound at the cheapest possible price. I really think the words "entry level" with relation to purported high-end sound is almost a pejorative term meant to let people know where they stand in the audiophile pecking order. If someone told you that for an entry level high-end stereo system, you have pretty good sound, would that not be a left-handed compliment?
Your definition of entry level high end is basically the cheapest priced gear from a manufacturer who makes very expensive high-end products. The definition should be much broader and should cover gear that provides sound quality that moves you inside the tent of high-end sound at the cheapest possible price. I really think the words "entry level" with relation to purported high-end sound is almost a pejorative term meant to let people know where they stand in the audiophile pecking order. If someone told you that for an entry level high-end stereo system, you have pretty good sound, would that not be a left-handed compliment?
No MEP,
I am saying you can get a very good high end preamp for $5to$7k.
If you look back I said true high end starts around $4k to $5k and will vary with diverse manufacturers for reasons I have mentioned in the past, so entry high end has a range from around $5k to $15kish.
You did notice my mention of Ayre and Classe, Nagra, and Audio Research, in all cases the products of theirs I am thinking of as entry high end is substantially cheaper than $15k
You cannot use one price as I said.
Cheers
Orb
I am saying you can get a very good high end preamp for $5to$7k.
If you look back I said true high end starts around $4k to $5k and will vary with diverse manufacturers for reasons I have mentioned in the past, so entry high end has a range from around $5k to $15kish.
You did notice my mention of Ayre and Classe, Nagra, and Audio Research, in all cases the products of theirs I am thinking of as entry high end is substantially cheaper than $15k
You cannot use one price as I said.
Cheers
Orb
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