Is it "whats best forum" , or what's more expensive

opus111

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I suspect the reason that 'measurements don't matter' is they're by and large meaningless to determine SQ. In other fields though, measurements do matter - for an example I bought a fridge based on its projected power use last time. So when someone does come up with a meaningful measurement that's shown to correlate well with SQ then the market will move slowly away from reviews and hearsay.
 

Nightlord

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PLEASE, take this as a personal journey, and not as an attack. I sold some very expensive gear ($32K Burmester 911 MK3 and $18K GNSC Wadia S7i). I look at some of the SOTA prices and cringe. Not because I can't afford it (I can), but because I seriously wonder about the bang for the buck factor. I kept my $24K Concert Fidelity pre and $27K Venture speakers, but sold my amp amp and source, and went downtown and bout an Oppo 105 and an ATI amp. But, you know what? I felt a 10% decline for a 1000% savings. Do not get me wrong, I greatly appreciate the SOTA, but wallet is my new sphincter muscle. Why even start this thread? Because I see an alarming tread at CES and the new prices of gear, considering this economy. If I am wrong, sorry for your time.

Edit: This is in reference to "Ultra High End" article. Nothing more, nothing less.

There's a number of different things to consider here.

One is that some people tend to get very angry when you question their subjective findings.

Another is the strange working of "it's more expensive so it has to be better".

A third one could be that some people spend ridiculous amounts on say cables, but won't do anything about acoustics or even place speakers correct.

A fourth one is that most people don't have a clear goal in mind what the setup is supposed to do, so they make one up for themselves.

A fifth one is that if you mix and match gear with colorations and for some reason need to replace one, then you may end up unbalancing it all and will have to go the whole cycle of testing/buying new gear to find a new balance of liking.

A sixth one could be that people listen too much to 'authorities' like reviewers in magazines or sales people.

There are hugely good opportunities in getting extreme bang-for-the-buck setups if you pick the right gear and even more so if you can consider pre-owned gear.

I wonder how much someone would have to spend on brand new high-end gear to actually match a Denon AVR from say 2008 as preamp with a couple of Emotiva poweramps driving B&W Matrix 801sII or perhaps NHT 3.3:s? It won't be as pretty to look at as some hyper-designed ultra high-end gear, but the performance difference would most likely be irritatingly small. ;)
Even if you'd pick a brand new pair of B&W 800 Diamonds at $24K, that's still "cheap" compared to other high-end stuff.

Another fun thing is that people use ridiculous words to describe differences. Had a falling out with a dealer a while back when he said the bigger amps of the two which he was a dealer of was 50% better than the other (high end gear, nothing cheap) and I wondered how he could put down his own gear like that and why he'd keep selling the cheaper one if it was that crappy... I mean, has it only half the frequency range, does it deliver music half tuned? Gear like that are close to the theoretical limit and the differences are minimal. Not matter how they're subjectively perceived, they're minimal. Sure, they could be something like 70% better then my alarmclock since it's mono and has a stumped frequency range and quite high distortion. But any real hifi gear will be quite close to the theoretical limit so we're talking a handful of percents difference at most so people might be spending $100k for a few tenths of a percent (and the bragging rights :cool:).
 

Gregadd

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This reminds me of when a rich man said, "you can't solve the problems of poor people by throwing money at it."
 

MylesBAstor

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Is it just me or is this just another strawman gambit???

I'd like to see where ANYONE has EVER said that expensive = the best.

Thing is no one said less expensive expensive is bad.

Truth be told, there's an minimum amount that needs to be spent, just like MLB team's payroll, to be competitive.

No the real problem is people trash talking that have never heard a properly set up system or *gasp* the equipment they're bad mouthing.

Wouldn't it though be interesting to listen to a system assembled by the numbers vs. mike L's system?
 
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FrantzM

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Is it just me or is this just another strawman gambit???

I'd like to see where ANYONE has EVER said that expensive = the best.

Not strawman Argument Myles.. Rather a statement of fact.
 

microstrip

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I think you missed the point of MarinJim's initial post.

Perhaps, but I am not interested about his remorse for spending too much money in high-end gear. My main and only focus was his comment "I felt a 10% decline for a 1000% savings. "
 

A.wayne

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Jan 14, 2011
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I suspect the reason that 'measurements don't matter' is they're by and large meaningless to determine SQ. In other fields though, measurements do matter - for an example I bought a fridge based on its projected power use last time. So when someone does come up with a meaningful measurement that's shown to correlate well with SQ then the market will move slowly away from reviews and hearsay.



The problem with that, is measurements necessary to establish what you consider to be good SQ, apart from that everyone i know of work with them ....:)
 

microstrip

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(...) If the high price means how you put it the "possibility of achieving great sound" then the companion equipment must be similarly priced .. thus an even more expensive system .. It gets to be expensive to assemble a better again according to this peculiar logic.
I have yet to see someone match a $250K speaker with a $5000 amplifier ...

Assembling a successful high-end system can have many approaches on the distribution of prices. Your example just stated in general is meaningless and does not help. If someone spending $255K in speaker and amplifier finds that spending an extra 10, 20 or 50K in the amplifier improves the system he will probably spend them.

No one has doubts that very expensive high-end is market driven - if there were no customers those products would disappear fast. For me the real question is why these expensive products seem to be better than the "reasonably" priced - I have no doubt that The Sonusfaber is better than the Futura Amatti in an adequate room.
 

MylesBAstor

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Not strawman Argument Myles.. Rather a statement of fact.

I'd like to see where ANYONE has EVER said that expensive = the best.

It seems to me words are being put in people's mouths.

Conversely, it seems that people who can't afford this equipment are always trashing it.
 

A.wayne

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Is it just me or is this just another strawman gambit???

I'd like to see where ANYONE has EVER said that expensive = the best.

Thing is no one said less expensive expensive is bad.

Truth be told, there's an minimum amount that needs to be spent, just like MLB team's payroll, to be competitive.

No the real problem is people trash talking that have never heard a properly set up system or *gasp* the equipment they're bad mouthing.

Wouldn't it though be interesting to listen to a system assembled by the numbers vs. mike L's system?

Well i did ask if a 5k cartridge sounds better than a 500-1k cartridge and the answer was "absolutely" , extrapolating a bit further by examining the comments surrounding the AF1 , it appears , well at least when discussing analog , you gets what you pays for ..:)

So cost is analogous with performance , more is better in this respect, well it better be, after following your cartridge recommendation ...:)
 
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A.wayne

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I wouldnt say none of the numbers matter , you yourself have focused on NOS dacs better SQ wave response , engineering is about undestanding which numbers matter , we know its not all about THD for eg, well especially if obtained by large amt of GNFB, amongst others ..

Thorsten's DAC did not measure particularly well , but was tops in SQ ...
 

opus111

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Where have I focussed on better square wave response? To me that's a distraction from the real benefit of NOS which is lower noise modulation. To me that's the number which matters but I'm still in the long process of working out a way to characterize it. I reckon that linearity obtained by large amounts of NFB will show up in my noise modulation figure, when I eventually get it...
 

A.wayne

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Ok , is noise modulation a measurement ...?
Is the better Sq wave response benificial ?

anyway We are going OT and can continue this in your DAC post..

Measuring what you do is an absolute necessity IMO..
 

microstrip

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I suspect the reason that 'measurements don't matter' is they're by and large meaningless to determine SQ. In other fields though, measurements do matter - for an example I bought a fridge based on its projected power use last time. So when someone does come up with a meaningful measurement that's shown to correlate well with SQ then the market will move slowly away from reviews and hearsay.

Short and objective!
+1 (although I have not bought a fridge for the last five years :))
 

rbbert

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...I wonder how much someone would have to spend on brand new high-end gear to actually match a Denon AVR from say 2008 as preamp with a couple of Emotiva poweramps driving B&W Matrix 801sII or perhaps NHT 3.3:s? It won't be as pretty to look at as some hyper-designed ultra high-end gear, but the performance difference would most likely be irritatingly small. ;)

Did you look at my profile before you posted this? ;)

Part of my HT setup is a 2010 Denon AVR driving my old Bryston 4B into NHT 3.3's.
 

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