Follow-up to amirms 3D Thread-3D Simulation

karma

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HI All,
I want to create an update to amirs rather old original 3D post since 3D seems to be a hotbed of activity and progressing fast. So, amirs, thanks for getting the subject started.

I'm no 3D expert. I'm old enough to remember the burst of 3D activity in the mid-1950's. It only lasted a couple of years then disappeared. I thought it was pretty neat. But it had no legs. The movies were pretty terrible but the 3D technique definitely worked. And now we come to NOW.

A few months ago I saw 3D Prometheus in a theater. I was very impressed. Not only was it a good movie (Ridley Scott, one of my favorites), the 3D effects were tasteful and good. Since I was in the market for a new TV, I checked out 3D models. Thirty seconds of Avatar sold me. Maybe I was premature. I bought a 55 inch Panasonic TC-P55VT50 3D capable TV. What a lovely television.

Doing some research into the current status of the 3D market has shown a very mixed bag. On one hand, retailers are pushing 3D with gusto which is not surprising. On the other there seems to be many folks who want nothing to do with 3D TV. I see a lot of resistance. The current selection of 3D media is fairly sparse but getting better everyday. Expense is an issue since most 3D releases are being marketed in deluxe editions. Forget about 3D in bargain bins which is my favorite stomping ground. And, which makes 3D TV a very iffy proposition, is the lack of truly high quality artistic productions. Clearly, 3D TV is at the cutting edge of home entertainment and still focused on the gee-whiz aspects of the technology. Hopefully this will change. I must admit that the 3D capability does turn me on but I would far prefer a good movie with 3D not the focus of the film.

I want to talk about the capabilities of my new TV because I think it is important. My Panasonic has a 3D simulation mode which can be used with any 2D program source, even off the air. For those of you who don't know, this means that the TV creates a simulated 3D presentation. The crucial question is whether the simulation is any good or is it just marketing hype? Since I have around 1000 2D DVD's a good 3D simulation could bridge the gap between the lack of good full 3D movies and what I already own, which are generally high quality productions. I have good news. The simulation is amazingly good. I didn't expect much at first. But, I have found that my collection is full of movies that benefit from high quality 3D simulation. I find myself using the simulation a lot and enjoying it very much.

And how does the simulation compare to a real 3D disk? Well, it's not as good. It lacks the subtlety of a full bore, well done, 3D production. Sometimes the 3D image gets confused (bright pinpoints of light tend to project into the foreground). Most of the time the presentation hangs together very well. But the comparison is not as easy as one would think. Most of the 3D media being sold has been artificially converted from 2D sources. In these cases, the temptation to resist 3D exaggeration cannot be resisted by film producers. There are exceptions. For 3D Titanic, for example, the conversion is extremely well done and adds a great deal to the movie. In this case the conversion is better than the simulation. Truly spectacular. But the 3D simulations produced by the TV of disks that are actually 2D were shot as 2D and have tendency to look quite natural without any of the unnatural artifacts of production exaggeration. All in all, I really like the 3D simulation mode. BTW, simulation still uses the Panasonic active glasses. I'm getting used to them and they work well.

With this thread I just wanted to update the discussion to illustrate that 3D simulation offers a high quality option that we can all use with all of our current 2D DVD's or Blu rays. For me, this is is something of a revelation and most definitely useful.

Sparky
 
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karma

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HI Don,
I assume your question expands the scope of what I have written about since off-axis has nothing to do with 3D simulation. Rather, your question is more in the realm of the general performance of the panel vis a vie plasma verses LCD. I will try to answer but not sure if I will give what you want.

To tell the truth, I have not tested for off-axis performance. All of my seating positions are directly in front of the television. However, I expect it to be good. My Panasonic uses plasma technology which historically is generally excellent off-axis. Understand that the system uses active lens switching on the glasses. The television sends a Bluetooth RF signal to the user mounted glasses to control the lens switching. This means there are no phasing anomalies between the left and right lenses to contaminate the 3D presentation no matter the viewing position. This would not be true for passive glasses technology.

In the Panasonic case, the down side of switched glasses is one must buy them separately from the TV at about $75 a pop. If you need to supply glasses for a large family this could run into real money.

This system has other positive side effects. For example, I have read about other folks complaining about not being able to lie down and watch a 3D presentation without left and right eyes getting confused. This problem simply does not exist with the system used by Panasonic. Lying down with the glasses lens aligned essentially in a vertical plane causes zero effects on the 3D presentation. Very effective and impressive. Of course, this is true with either real 3D material or simulated 3D. It makes no difference.

I have also read about complaints about folks being able to detect the switching of the lenses as a flicker they can see. With the Panasonic system, I can't detect any lens flicker while watching a movie. However, going to the kitchen to grab a soft drink with the glasses still on I can barely detect a flicker from the lenses. It's very fast and only noticeable while scanning the eyes across the visual field. To repeat, I never notice flicker while watching a movie.

Last, I have read about people getting headaches watching 3D movies. I believe all the headache reports pertain to movie theater experiences using the cheap cardboard glasses. I have not read of any headaches with home TV's. I certainly have not had any problems, not even eye fatigue.

Using the active glasses causes a noticeable diminution of picture brightness; about 1 f stop or slightly more. These reports are true and it can be bothersome. However, Panasonic, being very clever, thought to provide a custom, user adjusted, screen setting where one can adjust any screen parameter, including brightness, to compensate when the TV is in any 3D mode. This totally solves the brightness issue along with any other picture settings one might wish.

All in all, the TV design is well thought out.

I will test for off axis performance and if I find anything strange I will report it. If I don't report anything assume what I said above is correct. I expect it is. I know LCD screens will not be as good as plasma from any off-axis performance point of view. To my mind this is a major performance limitation of LCD screen technology.

Sparky

Edited to add:
I have read that the active switching 3D glasses are heavy. At least for the Panasonic case, they are not heavy at all. I wear them over my normal glasses and do not notice the weight which is slight. Other manufacturers glasses may not be as light. With these, I have no experience or opinion.
 
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DonH50

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Thanks very much, Sparky.

Yes, I expanded scope, market-driven engineering at its finest, sorry. But, simulated or "actual", that is one of my concerns with 3D. I have not tried any of the latest sets but am planning to upgrade this year or next, and of course now all the top-of-the-line models are 3D. About two years ago I looked at some of the earlier models and the 3D effect as well as overall quality dropped off pretty sharply as you moved more than maybe 20 degrees off-axis (not much). I need about 30-40 degrees if the whole family is watching... I have heard the newer models have improved so am curious. I'd appreciate any feedback you can offer; no rush!

IIRC, I found the same thing vis a vie passive vs. active shutter glasses -- the active were hands-down the winners, albeit much heavier.

Thanks! - Don
 

NorthStar

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-- Don, with plasmas, the 3D effects are still good at 60 degree to either side.

With LCD LEDs, it's about 20 degree on average.

That was your original question right?

______________________

* Sparky, great posts! :cool: ...And it is very interesting that you mentioned 2D to 3D conversion, as my Samsung plasma HDTV can do that too, and two of my Blu-ray players as well.

But, since two years that I've been living 'in 3D now', I have never tried that feature yet. ...Honest to God!
But I do have some 3D Blu-ray flicks though; about 99+ right now and still growing.
And me too, I love 'Prometheus' 3D. ...One of my favorites. :b
And 'Avatar' 3D of course has some amazing scenes (some of the first jungle, forest scenes for example).

_______________

3D active shutter glasses (3V battery operated), $20/pair (Samsung models).
Better ones (rechargeable & with side covers), about $50/pair when on sale.

3D passive glasses (only for some LCD LEDs 3D HDTVs), $5/pair.

_______________

Best 3D cinematic experience: apart from IMAX 3D Theaters, 3D front projectors (Sony, JVC, Runco, Digital Projection M-Vision Cine).

Best 3D flat panels (plasma active): Panasonic Viera, Samsung.

Best 3D flat panels (LCD LEDs passive): Sharp Elite Pro, Sony Bravia XBR.
...Some Sharp (Quattron), Vizio and LG models too.

And the larger the screen's size, the more impactful the 3D effects are, duh.
- Flat 3D panels: 55" to 90" (Panasonic 100" and 150" plasma HDTVs if you can afford them, and if they do 3D; not sure and don't think so anyway).
* Pioneer Elite Kuros (plasma): No 3D.
- Front 3D projectors: sky's the limit (size).

________________

THE FUTURE: Bigger, Better (16K, Holographic), and Cheaper ($$$ wise). :b
 
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karma

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-- Don, with plasmas, the 3D effects are still good at 60 degree to either side.

With LCD LEDs, it's about 20 degree on average.

That was your original question right?

______________________

* Sparky, great posts! :cool: ...And it is very interesting that you mentioned 2D to 3D conversion, as my Samsung plasma HDTV can do that too, and two of my Blu-ray players as well.

But, since two years that I've live with 3D now, I have never tried that feature yet. ...Honest to God!
But I do have some 3D Blu-ray flicks though; about 99+ right now and still growing.
And me too, I love 'Prometheus' 3D. ...One of my favorites. :b
And 'Avatar' 3D of course has some amazing scenes (some of the first jungle, forest scenes for example).

_______________

3D active shutter glasses (3V battery operated), $20/pair (Samsung models).
Better ones (rechargeable & with side covers), about $50/pair when on sale.

3D passive glasses (only for some LCD LEDs 3D HDTVs), $5/pair.

_______________

Best 3D cinematic experience: apart from IMAX 3D Theaters, 3D front projectors (Sony, JVC, Runco, Digital Projection M-Vision Cine).

Best 3D flat panels (plasma active): Panasonic Viera, Samsung.

Best 3D flat panels (LCD LEDs passive): Sharp Elite Pro, Sony Bravia XBR. ...Some Vizio and LG models too.

HI Bob,
Now that is funny, your experience (or lack of) with 3D simulation. You see, when I auditioned my Panasonic Viera I did not know the feature was there nor did the sales person mention it. He was obviously much too interested in showing me Avatar. It worked. He made the sale.

It was not until 3 days after the TV was installed that I discovered the 3D simulation feature while I was scanning the setup screens. It took another week to actually try it. Now, after about two weeks of watching many movies with 3D simulation, I decided that other folks might be ignoring what seemed to me to be a very valuable feature. That's when I decided to start this thread.

Now that you have read this are you planning to give it a try? After all, all it takes is a few button pushes on the remote. If you do I'll be very interested in hearing your opinion. I'm not at all sure that all 3D simulations are equal from an engineering point of view. I can see many possible reasons why they might not be. Let us know since you are now officially on the 3D simulation review committee. :cool:

Sparky
 

NorthStar

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HI Bob,
...

Now that you have read this are you planning to give it a try? After all, all it takes is a few button pushes on the remote. If you do I'll be very interested in hearing your opinion. I'm not at all sure that all 3D simulations are equal from an engineering point of view. I can see many possible reasons why they might not be. Let us know since you are now officially on the 3D simulation review committee. :cool:

Sparky

Lol, just for sake of communication, exploration, and all dat jazz, why not! :b

And I know which movies are more appropriate for that 2D to 3D conversion. ...But I'll try only one though.

See, ... life is very short, and we all try to apply our priorities where they count the most, and dispose of our time intelligently; and because I always buy some new Blu-ray movies (3D too), and some of my already 'real' 3D ones are cool to rewatch, and that I wear prescription glasses, and my eyes are sensitive, I just don't go overboard with 3D. I have to be well diposed (relaxed) for 3D. ...And I'm still very much a 2D man. :b

- 3D (as compared to 2D) is similar to what HDCD is to CD, sort of; it's cool but some (many) CDs are already real cool.

Gimme some time, at my own leisurely pace, and I'll get back to you in my experimentation of a 2D Blu-ray movie converted to 3D. I know it won't be as good as the real thing, but nonetheless I'll give you my honest opinion.
I'm game too, it's always fun to experiment.

BTW Sparky, Amir is his real name. ...Just mentioning because you wrote down amirms.
 
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karma

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HI Bob,
Why only one? The experience will not in any way neuter you. Try a few. Since you have not tried the simulation mode, you have no idea what to expect. After all, you owe nothing to me. Only to yourself. Your conservatism is puzzling.

Sparky
 

amirm

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Very nice write up Sparky. What I would add is to get the largest set you can. And sit close to it. You want to fill the field of view. I find that one of the most distracting things: that you look past the TV and everything looks "flat." That immediately pulls me out of the experience.

I too am surprised how well simulated 3-D works in general. We are fortunate that this technology was introduced when signal processing has gotten so cheap. I must admit though: I get tired of it much like I get tired of watching surround effects for 2-D music :). Part of it is me. I analyze the picture too much and keep finding flaws. Part of it is that it has a "look" to it that I can't get past it. It kind of looks half real. Still, I can easily see the appeal and it works a lot better than has any business to do!

On the content side, there certainly are a lot of choices. The best content I find is slow motion. Fast motion with our limited 24 fps movie production means a lot of strobing (effective rate becomes 12 fps in 3-D). Good directors and such know to avoid this but most don't. They go for exaggerated effects in such modes that drives me crazy.

Overall, I think it is good to have it as an option. I would say about half of the movies I buy, I opt for the 3-D version just to have it. As you, I am not happy about the premium but pay it anyway.

Again, great post and good to have your feedback and refresh of the topic.
 

NorthStar

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HI Bob,
Why only one? The experience will not in any way neuter you. Try a few. Since you have not tried the simulation mode, you have no idea what to expect. After all, you owe nothing to me. Only to yourself. Your conservatism is puzzling.

Sparky

Can I try a bunch of scenes from various BD titles then? :b
...From DVDs? Nah, best to stick with Blus.

True, all we do is for the world to improve for the best.
I owe you much more than what you think. :b

Lol, "conservatism", what does it mean?
 

NorthStar

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Good '2D-3D' HDTV TIPS!

Very nice write up Sparky. What I would add is to get the largest set you can. And sit close to it. You want to fill the field of view. I find that one of the most distracting things: that you look past the TV and everything looks "flat." That immediately pulls me out of the experience.

...

---- We cannot emphasize that point strongly enough.

* In movies watching like in music listening, the proper positioning is a huge part of the total immersive experience.

__________________

If your HDTV is only a 65" or so model size, try this:
-> Experiment with viewing distances: From six (6) feet to nine (9) feet at the very maximum. ...7.5 feet is dead on, IMO.
Seven and a half feet (7.5') from a 65" diagonal HDTV screen is 1.385 times the diagonal; or ninety inches (90").
And that provides you with a 35 degree angle field of view, which is very very nice.

And 8.5 feet from that same 65" diagonal screen gives you a 30 degree angle field of view. That would be near the maximum distance you want to sit from that HDTV.

And 6.5 feet gives you a 40 degree angle field of view.

So, from a 65 inch diagonal screen's size:

- 40 degree angle = 6.5 feet (78") distance (1.2 times the diagonal).
- 35 degree angle = 7.5 feet (90") distance (1.385 times the diagonal).
- 30 degree angle = 8.5 feet (102") distance (1.57 times the diagonal).

______________

BUT! Also to take into consideration: the wide aspect ratio (2.35:1 & 2.40:1) on a 16:9 HDTV, with the lost picture below and above the screen (black bars).
So aim for a shorter than a longer viewing distance; like from six feet to eight feet max. from the screen (65" - 1080p HDTV). ..Seven feet being right in the middle.

______________

With front projectors you can also use those same mathematical derivatives.

* A 100" screen size, with a 35 degree angle field of view would be 138.5" (11.5 feet) distance from that screen (1.385 x 100).
And for 30 degree, that would be 157" (13.0 feet) distance (1.57 x 100).
And ten feet (120") distance gives you a 40 degree field of view, from that same 100" screen size (1.2 x 100).

*** And all the better for that full immersive 3D experience.
...In particular with Active 3D.

AND! Turn all the lights OFF!

Happy 2D-3D Viewing! :b
 
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karma

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Can I try a bunch of scenes from various BD titles then? :b
...From DVDs? Nah, best to stick with Blus.

True, all we do is for the world to improve for the best.
I owe you much more than what you think. :b

Lol, "conservatism", what does it mean?

HI Bob,
By conservatism I mean that you seem so reluctant to try something you already have and costs nothing but a little time and not even much of that. I don't understand.

Is that how you buy a car; by driving a couple of blocks? NO. Try everything and anything you have to come to a conclusion. No need to limit yourself. Get a good, broad feel for the simulation. Nothing but your enjoyment is at stake.

Oh, and be sure to try the simulation with live TV programs. It has something to offer there too.

Sparky
 

KBK

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S/N ratio is the big problem, and that of inherent resolution is the second.

DLP rear projection or DLP front projection is king in both areas. DLP's run at a micro second level of perfection in pixel control and have a native framing rate of 900hz, at a minimum, with that micro second pixel control added in.

when it comes to 3D...Nothing is as ghost free and has as high a contrast ratio, and thus 'inherent believability'... as DLP.

BTW, all active glasses are not created equal. The same goes for the passive glasses.
 

karma

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S/N ratio is the big problem, and that of inherent resolution is the second.

DLP rear projection or DLP front projection is king in both areas. DLP's run at a micro second level of perfection in pixel control and have a native framing rate of 900hz, at a minimum, with that micro second pixel control added in.

when it comes to 3D...Nothing is as ghost free and has as high a contrast ratio, and thus 'inherent believability'... as DLP.

BTW, all active glasses are not created equal. The same goes for the passive glasses.

HI KBK,
Care to tell us what you are talking about? How does this relate to this thread?

Sparky
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
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-- Yes, I knew exactly what you meant by "conservatism"; I simply 'humored' it.

I live in a very conservatist province; British Columbia. But I'm from Quebec, an independendist province.
And I just don't know who/what I truly am; I got no identity, or perhaps I'm an universalist. :b

My heart is at one place, my soul at another, my mind at a different one, and my body at the fourth corner of the globe.

________________________

* For easing on viewing distances; for that second group of videophiles (conservatism) ::

- 30 degrees field of view (1.78:1 aspect ratio) = 1.86 times the screen width.
- 40 degrees field of view (1.78:1 or 16:9) = 1.36 times the screen width.

=> For close up, shoot for 40 degrees; for further back, 30.
And with a 2:35:1 screen aspect ratio, try to shift that closer to 35 degrees.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html

NOTE: What is good for 2D is also good for 3D - regarding viewing distances. ...In my book anyway.

________________

As for 3D from DLP projectors (rear and front), and S/N, and native frame rate (900Hz & +, and plasma at 600Hz, and LCD -LED- at 60 or 120Hz, or 240Hz but extrapolated): I just don't know enough as most displays nowadays are or plasmas, or LCD LEDs, or front projectors using SXRD, or LCD, or D-ILA, or LCOS, and also DLP (rear & front), and LED DLP, and HC DLP technologies. And indeed some of the best ones use LED DLP (Runco and Digital Projection M-Vision Cine), and SXRD (LED from Sony) technologies. ...And also D-ILA (JVC Procision).

BUT! Some of them don't do 2D to 3D, let alone 3D all together.

Perhaps an expert can pitch in.

** And KBK is perhaps right; regarding 900Hz+ refresh rate, and faster frame rate (48fps) for a better 3D viewing experience.

____________

And OLED (LG, Sony, ...), and CCFL backlighting (Toshiba LCD HDTV), with 3D,
and with 2D to 3D conversion; I dunno.

P.S. Sparky, any input, from anyone, on or off topic, could be beneficial. :b
 
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karma

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Jun 17, 2011
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Very nice write up Sparky. What I would add is to get the largest set you can. And sit close to it. You want to fill the field of view. I find that one of the most distracting things: that you look past the TV and everything looks "flat." That immediately pulls me out of the experience.

I too am surprised how well simulated 3-D works in general. We are fortunate that this technology was introduced when signal processing has gotten so cheap. I must admit though: I get tired of it much like I get tired of watching surround effects for 2-D music :). Part of it is me. I analyze the picture too much and keep finding flaws. Part of it is that it has a "look" to it that I can't get past it. It kind of looks half real. Still, I can easily see the appeal and it works a lot better than has any business to do!

On the content side, there certainly are a lot of choices. The best content I find is slow motion. Fast motion with our limited 24 fps movie production means a lot of strobing (effective rate becomes 12 fps in 3-D). Good directors and such know to avoid this but most don't. They go for exaggerated effects in such modes that drives me crazy.

Overall, I think it is good to have it as an option. I would say about half of the movies I buy, I opt for the 3-D version just to have it. As you, I am not happy about the premium but pay it anyway.

Again, great post and good to have your feedback and refresh of the topic.

HI amir,
Though we do have a few posts and posters in this thread, there does not seem to be very many 3D users in this forum. This has been a common theme on other forums where I have tried to elicit responses. I understand this forum is a small statistical sample. But it does appear that there are very few 3D users out there. Is this caused by a lack of technical interest or simply that there are few 3D TV's yet in homes?

I have a question for you concerning the simulation mode. My experience is very narrow being limited to one Panasonic TV. I do not have broad enough experience to draw general conclusions. Above, I mentioned that I have no reason to think that all TV's do equally good simulations. Since signal processing is involved, simulation software obviously could vary significantly from one manufacturer to another. The same could be true of the algorithms upon which the simulation is based. Or has some "Golden Mean" been found upon which all simulation is based. I rather doubt this.

What have you found? Do all TV's do a passable job with simulation or are there variations from one maker or model to the next? I find it interesting that there seems to be almost nothing written about the subject. True even with the more through TV reviews. Why is this?

One last item. You mention your tendency to over analyze looking for flaws. I think this is self defeating. The whole point is an immersive experience that transcends analysis. I see a parallel to audio. Really good and experienced audiophiles have gained total confidence in their system to the point where its sonic character is ignored and the music takes over. This should be the goal. Of course, some base level of performance is required to accomplish this. Usually, this means excellent performance where all of the warts have been found and fixed. Only then can the experience be truly immersive. So, I guess I can assume your experience with simulation has not reached this level of perfection. Right?

Sparky
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I have two 3D Samsung sets in my house, one 55" and the other 35"

PQ is superb and it too has the 2D ->3D conversion is also decent

My Sony Blu-ray player is 3D and comes supplied with 4 sets of glasses with the larger TV and 2 sets with the smaller. I've watched 3D films on it and actually found it OK. Now do I use it? Yeh, when my grandchildren come over

BTW, check out Martin Scorsese's Hugo in 3D. For my eyes it was the best 3D experience I've had short of the LG 3D LED at CES last year which was flat out amazing. According to Amir that set will finally be available this year at a reported cost of $12K
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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Plasma or LCD/LED?

Sparky -- I suspect there are a number of folk like me that are very interested but do not own 3D displays and so are not competent to comment. Do not let that dissuade you from discussing what is a very interesting and informative topic!
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
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Hi Sparky,

Above you asked Amir about 3D interest here among the members.
I am sure that there are few of us with 3D displays.

BUT! Movies watching is very very secondary at WBF (in general); Audio and all its derivatives (gear, acoustics, music, analog, digital, recording technics, etc.) is the main attraction, I believe. ...Hi-Fi Stereo, TTs, quality loudspeakers, preamps, amps, acoustic room treatments, quality music recordings, ... are the strong recipes from calibrated contenders.
But multichannel music is also part of the overall ensemble, and Music concert videos.

And of course there is the Sports section too (TV watching).
...And then some specialized subjects relating to pretty much everything that is best.
...Plus the latest Audio/Video shows, and the latest gadgets and technologies, and news too; on everything. And then you have the Experts, in their own domain.
...Plus the manufacturers, with their own products.

Each one of us we all have our own interests and passions and knowledges and experiences and subjects of conversation. We all share together what are our interests of the moment, and an overall atmosphere developed all by itself and created by magic, by people's own perceptions, passions, and discussions of interest.

Remember too; WBF is a force from a smaller number of people, but stronger by the same token.

And that force means less wasted talk with a lesser number of people, but with a special strength in its content by a fewer number of people. ...That's one way to look at it; the way I see it myself anyway.

__________________

One last thing: The number of members at different forums is very relative.
What truly counts is INTELLIGENT INTERACTIVITY, and the Content of course.

Furthermore, some audio/video sites which claim that x number of members are 'boosting' those numbers in an unfashionable way. And that is a fact.
Also, the number of "active" members is a much more accurate representation of actual activity.
And finally, the "quality" (caliber) of them active members, is the real essence.
 
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