Need help understanding room interaction with upper mids/high frequencies

A.wayne

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The graphs i qouted is the more accurate to determine the FR , fig 7 is a spatial avg in room , the mic is not directly into the tweeter, this kind of measurement will always show a rolled off top end, it is not for FR accuracy, it's for spectral balance at the position ....

The FR measurement shows the speaker to be "hot" on the top end ....

Regards,
 

A.wayne

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i found that placing felt around the tweeter mid gives better focussing but also makes the top end slightly duller sounding


Actually too much felt ( unless intruding on the tweeter) damping leads to a brighter top end , due to less smearing , the negative is beaming, the tweeter will shout here I'am.. You can lose the top end due to phase issues from reflections ....
 

andromedaaudio

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The graphs i qouted is the more accurate to determine the FR , fig 7 is a spatial avg in room , the mic is not directly into the tweeter, this kind of measurement will always show a rolled off top end, it is not for FR accuracy, it's for spectral balance at the position ....

The FR measurement shows the speaker to be "hot" on the top end ....

Regards,
JA also measures on tweeter axis ,its just part of the average measured response which consist of several measurements , but the average room response is what people hear not what is measured in an anechoic chamber .
What i heard with the felt is a fact as to how i heard it and at that moment the speaker had a flat FR (measured without felt )
I didnt measure with the felt on , and ive made/tried speakers with flat FR elevated FR and downslope FR , it kinda sounded as when one would reduce tweeteroutput .
But youre ears and knowledge differ from mine quit a lot ,if you think the indra in room response is hot , no problem .
 

MadFloyd

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But, Floyd liked the high end better- more punch, in the one location, so the measurements aren't showing us the problem, then, do you agree? Your suggestion about the lack of a sidewall is as good as any, perhaps the right one. Ordinarily, lot's of stuff (and Floyd has lot's of stuff) between the speakers can screw up the stereo image, not necessarily affect the lack of 'punch' but I'm taking a stab in the dark.

Wow, somehow missed an entire page of posts. Yesterday I removed all of the crap near the window (except for the subs) and moved the amps up against the window. That didn't do much other than cause some smearing so I then hung blankets over the sliding doors and put some absorption at first reflection points.
 

MadFloyd

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Your graph looks very similar to the XLF measurements in Stereophile for most of the band, and both show the same rolloff after 6k; and Stereophile measured both at Fremer's home and Innovative Audio. So it feels like Steve's claim has a lot of merit. I see similarities in the bass as well. And I wonder what additional contribution the tube electronics may have here with respect to perceived treble.

I now see this the similarities - you're right. You are also right about the tubes coming into play - with my Lamm hybrid amps there's a little more perceived high end.
 

MadFloyd

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Have you ever had the system positioned in a way that puts the speakers along the back wall where your couch resides firing into the room the opposite way? This would require putting the couch in the position where your speakers are located (As seen in pic #1)? Seems like in doing so you would give each speaker an equal amount of side wall to work with and eliminate the opening as a potential issue.

If the above isn't possible:

In the first shot it appears your listening chair is positioned in a way that places you back behind the left wall which leads into the kitchen area. If you move up so that your ears are taking in the sound before it hits that left wall which leads into the kitchen It may help. This of course would be a slightly more "near field" configuration but may also lessen the impact of not having a wall for the one speaker.

I'm thinking about your first suggestion. The couch is a bitch to move (all connected together) but I may try it...
 

ack

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I now see this the similarities - you're right. You are also right about the tubes coming into play - with my Lamm hybrid amps there's a little more perceived high end.

If it's any consolation, when I got my [second] Martin Logan 10 years ago, with the then-current Spectral gear I was using, my description of the treble was "it sucked". Ten years later and with the same panels but better crossover, sources and cable, the treble is sensational. You may just need different electronics to get the desired result, if indeed Wilson speakers roll off highs... So configure for bass output and then worry about the treble. I have a feeling you are in for an expensive re-do
 

A.wayne

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JA also measures on tweeter axis ,its just part of the average measured response which consist of several measurements , but the average room response is what people hear not what is measured in an anechoic chamber .
What i heard with the felt is a fact as to how i heard it and at that moment the speaker had a flat FR (measured without felt )
I didnt measure with the felt on , and ive made/tried speakers with flat FR elevated FR and downslope FR , it kinda sounded as when one would reduce tweeteroutput .
But youre ears and knowledge differ from mine quit a lot ,if you think the indra in room response is hot , no problem .

I did not say it's in room response was hot, i said it's measured FR response was hot and the In room response wil always show a trailing of the highs due to mic proximity, twisting my words wont change that ... :)

and Yes, you are right , i was not there to see how you were applying the felt, my guess, you were impeding the Tweeter, so you lost top end ..

But ...

I have built a few Myself ( moons ago), measured alot, sold them too , to studios , mastering rooms, stereo shops , blah ,blah ,bah, so i know a little bit, not as much as you , just enuff to sniff around .. :)


Regards,
 
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A.wayne

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I'm thinking about your first suggestion. The couch is a bitch to move (all connected together) but I may try it...

Save your back ..:)

Not necessary, move the speakers and your listening chair closer together , nearfield as possible,( 2M max) listen at tweeter level , if it still sounds the same , then it's not acoustics ...

Regards,
 

MadFloyd

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If it's any consolation, when I got my [second] Martin Logan 10 years ago, with the then-current Spectral gear I was using, my description of the treble was "it sucked". Ten years later and with the same panels but better crossover, sources and cable, the treble is sensational. You may just need different electronics to get the desired result, if indeed Wilson speakers roll off highs... So configure for bass output and then worry about the treble. I have a feeling you are in for an expensive re-do

OMG, this IS my expensive re-do.
 

Bill Hart

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Floyd: I may be confused (won't be the first time), but:
1. You changed amps from the Lamm hybrid to the Doshi as part of this evolution, right?
2. You get tighter bass in the window position compared to the fireplace position?
3. You still perceive a lack of high frequencies in either position (window or fireplace)?
4. I remember your original complaint, before you changed amps, was a lack of bass articulation in the fireplace position.
Does that sum it up?
When is Jim S. coming up?
 

MadFloyd

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Floyd: I may be confused (won't be the first time), but:
1. You changed amps from the Lamm hybrid to the Doshi as part of this evolution, right?
2. You get tighter bass in the window position compared to the fireplace position?
3. You still perceive a lack of high frequencies in either position (window or fireplace)?
4. I remember your original complaint, before you changed amps, was a lack of bass articulation in the fireplace position.
Does that sum it up?
When is Jim S. coming up?

Highs are fine in fireplace position, but otherwise correct.

Jim will be coming one weekend in January. Probably near the end of the month as ideally I should be getting REL subs first (they connect via speaker cable from the amp; the JLs do not).
 

A.wayne

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t took me longer than usual to comprehend what the Wilson Sasha's measurements were telling me. Some of the individual measurements raised my eyebrows a little, but taking in the entirety of the speaker's measurements, it becomes apparent that the Sasha is the result of its designer carefully balancing each parameter to achieve a good-sounding whole. And judging from not only Art Dudley's auditioning but also my own, the Sasha does achieve that goal. With the Sasha, David Wilson has finally eliminated the upper-bass "blump" endemic to earlier generations of the WATT/Puppy, and that I felt to be that otherwise excellent-sounding speaker's Achilles' heel. But its impedance is still going to mean careful auditioning with a would-be purchaser's amplifier, to see if the latter is up to the task of driving the Sashas.


John Atkinson
 

Bill Hart

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t took me longer than usual to comprehend what the Wilson Sasha's measurements were telling me. Some of the individual measurements raised my eyebrows a little, but taking in the entirety of the speaker's measurements, it becomes apparent that the Sasha is the result of its designer carefully balancing each parameter to achieve a good-sounding whole. And judging from not only Art Dudley's auditioning but also my own, the Sasha does achieve that goal. With the Sasha, David Wilson has finally eliminated the upper-bass "blump" endemic to earlier generations of the WATT/Puppy, and that I felt to be that otherwise excellent-sounding speaker's Achilles' heel. But its impedance is still going to mean careful auditioning with a would-be purchaser's amplifier, to see if the latter is up to the task of driving the Sashas.


John Atkinson
A Wayne, I think Floyd heard these very electronics with the same speaker at a dealers, admittedly in a different room, but I think, and maybe wrong, with the same type of cable. So, he's encountering a set-up/room issue, I think, not a problem matching amp and speaker. Floyd will obviously chime in if I am wrong....
 

A.wayne

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Hi Whart,

Agree, it could also be a combination of both , the impedance phase and magnitude on the Sasha's will make amp choices very sensitive and I'm in no way ruling out acoustics .....
 

MadFloyd

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Well I am now wondering if a flat presentation in the bass region is even possible with these speakers. Seems they were designed to be somewhat bloated. This would explain why I've never heard really good bass out them (without EQ) in all the venues/systems I've heard them in.

The two pairs of amps that I have are supposed to be among the best matches for the Sasha's. One was the top recommendation by Wison, one was developed/voiced with the Sasha.
 

FrantzM

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Steve Williams

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Personally I would leave the speakers in the best position that Floyd has found, deal with room acoustics and wall treatments and use DRC. problem solved

As I said the gentle roll off at the top end is consistant with Wilson speakers
 

JackD201

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Hi Floyd,

I was just wondering if you were running your amplifiers through the V-Ray IIs.
 

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