Need help understanding room interaction with upper mids/high frequencies

MadFloyd

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JackD201

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It's my suspicion, yes. :)
 

theguesswho

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Madfloyd said, "Here's measurements of the individual speakers at the listening position (without the subs you see"

Can we see the measured response with the subs? I am sure it must look much better as a complete system.

Wendell
 

MadFloyd

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Madfloyd said, "Here's measurements of the individual speakers at the listening position (without the subs you see"

Can we see the measured response with the subs? I am sure it must look much better as a complete system.

Wendell

I'll post that tomorrow. I'm not at expert at integrating them, but I can get improvement - partly because I like having the speakers out from the wall (36" in my case) and that reduces low bass (plus I'm using tube amps which aren't the last word in low bass/woofer control).
 

Bill Hart

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Floyd: just saw this thread. When you had the system set up in front of the fireplace, you didn't have all the gear in between the speakers. Now you do. Wonder what that's doing.....
 

Steve Williams

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Floyd: just saw this thread. When you had the system set up in front of the fireplace, you didn't have all the gear in between the speakers. Now you do. Wonder what that's doing.....


But Bill the results looked virtually the same at the top end in either location.

I'm still going to wonder about abset left wall.

Floyd

Not sure if it's feasible but if so it wouldn't look aesthetically pleasing but what about trying the speaker position such that they sit in front of the absent wall. Then put a soundscreen behind the speakers to see if any difference or even put a soundscreen there now and then try both speaker positions again

Finally, finally call the guys at Wilson Audio. They are terrific and always have answers
 

Bill Hart

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But Bill the results looked virtually the same at the top end in either location.

But, Floyd liked the high end better- more punch, in the one location, so the measurements aren't showing us the problem, then, do you agree? Your suggestion about the lack of a sidewall is as good as any, perhaps the right one. Ordinarily, lot's of stuff (and Floyd has lot's of stuff) between the speakers can screw up the stereo image, not necessarily affect the lack of 'punch' but I'm taking a stab in the dark.
 

andromedaaudio

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I agree with steve that the left speaker sees " no " left wall room boundary and therefore cannot pressurize the room like the right one cann , creating an imbalance , i would try and keep the open space behind the listening position.
just my thought
 

ack

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Really? I've always thought the Sashas were quite extended compared to other systems I've heard.

Your graph looks very similar to the XLF measurements in Stereophile for most of the band, and both show the same rolloff after 6k; and Stereophile measured both at Fremer's home and Innovative Audio. So it feels like Steve's claim has a lot of merit. I see similarities in the bass as well. And I wonder what additional contribution the tube electronics may have here with respect to perceived treble.
 
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cjf

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Have you ever had the system positioned in a way that puts the speakers along the back wall where your couch resides firing into the room the opposite way? This would require putting the couch in the position where your speakers are located (As seen in pic #1)? Seems like in doing so you would give each speaker an equal amount of side wall to work with and eliminate the opening as a potential issue.

If the above isn't possible:

In the first shot it appears your listening chair is positioned in a way that places you back behind the left wall which leads into the kitchen area. If you move up so that your ears are taking in the sound before it hits that left wall which leads into the kitchen It may help. This of course would be a slightly more "near field" configuration but may also lessen the impact of not having a wall for the one speaker.
 

microstrip

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Are your Transparent Audio cables specifically tuned for your tube amplifiers? Although I like a lot these cables, with some amplifiers they rob air and make them lifeless - IMHO, no cable is perfect for all systems.
From my experience with the brand, the worst condition of operation is using a cable tuned for a very high damping amplifier with a tube amplifier.
 

Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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Hi Floyd,

I'm using REW software, ...with an Earthworks M30 microphone (calibrated for measuring).
Frankly, there’s only so much trust I’d only put in a mic that doesn’t have a custom calibration file. That said...


... but there's also a difference in the high frequencies.

The presentation from this perspective is very pleasing, but the upper mids/highs sound a little rolled off. For example, the title track on Shelby Lynne's 'Just A Little Loving' that starts out with drums and very little instrumentation has a snare rimshot that sounds more like wood blocks - doesn't have that 'snap' to it. On other systems - or on my own system in the other orientation... the rimshot sounds great - as there is more upper frequency energy.
What I see is that your reference track doesn’t really jibe with the audible deficiency you describe – reduced upper-mids and highs.

The reason the rim shot sounds great in your fireplace speaker placement can be easily explained. For starters, the primary frequency content of a rim shot is more correctly in the 1-2 kHz range, if that high. Much lower than the “upper frequency energy” you believe it resides in. And look at your fireplace graph: Response is hot in the 1-2 kHz range, and is reduced overall both above and below that point!! So the reason that rim shot that sounds so good with the fireplace location is actually the result of poor overall balance that’s exaggerating the frequency range the rim shot “lives in.” You’re actually getting a better representation of how that rim shot sounds in relation to the rest of the recording with your window speaker placement, which (if we can trust the measurements made with an uncalibrated mic) exhibits flatter overall response.

The open wall would have little effect on the left speaker's response from the midrange up. However, you’d probably see less comb filtering from that speaker in the upper frequencies, as would be visible with an unsmoothed graph. I do find it curious that the open wall seems to have no adverse affect on the left speaker’s bass response. Without the reinforcement from a nearby boundary, I’d expect to see measured response below 200 Hz or so reduced overall compared to the right speaker.

Again, your window-placement graph is much better than the fireplace, IMO, as it’s more linear across the board. There are a couple of problem areas with those graphs that jump out at me however, starting with the broad dip between 2-4 kHz. It’s evident with both graphs (window and fireplace), indicating that it’s either a characteristic of the speakers, or of the speaker/room combination.

Other problems I see with the window graph is the significant hole between 200-40 Hz, and the hole in response between ~ 125-160 Hz in the speaker that owns the blue trace.

I expect you’d realize an audible improvement fixing these problems with parametric equalization.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt



 

MadFloyd

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Are your Transparent Audio cables specifically tuned for your tube amplifiers? Although I like a lot these cables, with some amplifiers they rob air and make them lifeless - IMHO, no cable is perfect for all systems.
From my experience with the brand, the worst condition of operation is using a cable tuned for a very high damping amplifier with a tube amplifier.

They were originally tuned for my Lamm M1.2 hybrids but they have since been retuned - and yes, it made a big difference.
 

MadFloyd

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Hi Floyd,

Frankly, there’s only so much trust I’d only put in a mic that doesn’t have a custom calibration file. That said...


What I see is that your reference track doesn’t really jibe with the audible deficiency you describe – reduced upper-mids and highs.

The reason the rim shot sounds great in your fireplace speaker placement can be easily explained. For starters, the primary frequency content of a rim shot is more correctly in the 1-2 kHz range, if that high. Much lower than the “upper frequency energy” you believe it resides in. And look at your fireplace graph: Response is hot in the 1-2 kHz range, and is reduced overall both above and below that point!! So the reason that rim shot that sounds so good with the fireplace location is actually the result of poor overall balance that’s exaggerating the frequency range the rim shot “lives in.” You’re actually getting a better representation of how that rim shot sounds in relation to the rest of the recording with your window speaker placement, which (if we can trust the measurements made with an uncalibrated mic) exhibits flatter overall response.

The open wall would have little effect on the left speaker's response from the midrange up. However, you’d probably see less comb filtering from that speaker in the upper frequencies, as would be visible with an unsmoothed graph. I do find it curious that the open wall seems to have no adverse affect on the left speaker’s bass response. Without the reinforcement from a nearby boundary, I’d expect to see measured response below 200 Hz or so reduced overall compared to the right speaker.

Again, your window-placement graph is much better than the fireplace, IMO, as it’s more linear across the board. There are a couple of problem areas with those graphs that jump out at me however, starting with the broad dip between 2-4 kHz. It’s evident with both graphs (window and fireplace), indicating that it’s either a characteristic of the speakers, or of the speaker/room combination.

Other problems I see with the window graph is the significant hole between 200-40 Hz, and the hole in response between ~ 125-160 Hz in the speaker that owns the blue trace.

I expect you’d realize an audible improvement fixing these problems with parametric equalization.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt




Wayne, thanks so much for your thoughts on this.

I spent much of the day yesterday trying to improve the response on the window wall but didn't get anywhere. Bass is much more intelligible in this configuration but I find I get bored because of the lack of presence in the highs - classical music sounds especially dull to my ears (whether this is the actual room response, some hearing loss or a bit of both I'm not sure). Once again I ended up going back to the fireplace wall which satisfied with classical but can be awful for jazz or any genre where bass articulation plays a huge role.

I did measurements with 1/3 smoothing, where I did captured both speakers together so I could easily compare both orientations:
both orientations.jpg

Green is the window wall, red is fireplace. Ports were stuffed for these measurements (hence lack of deep bass).
 

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andromedaaudio

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I said specifically not the "anechoic response" but fig 7 inroom response , which slopes slightly down if you would draw a line through it .

Mad floyd in my opinion it can also be a sasha speakercharacteristic , i found that placing felt around the tweeter mid gives better focussing but also makes the top end slightly duller sounding
 

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