Need help understanding room interaction with upper mids/high frequencies

MadFloyd

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I'm puzzled.

I have switched back and forth between two orientations in my family room. There are peaks and nulls in the bass that differ (and that's to be expected) but there's also a difference in the high frequencies. I suppose that's also not surprising, but I'd like to understand it better in the hope that I can improve it, as I prefer one orientation over the other but the highs are a tad to recessed for my liking.

Here's a few pics of my room - all with the speakers oriented on the window wall.

photo (2).jpg photo (3).jpg photo (4).jpg photo (5).jpg

Here's measurements of the individual speakers at the listening position (without the subs you see in the photos):
Speakers on the Window wall.JPG

The presentation from this perspective is very pleasing, but the upper mids/highs sound a little rolled off. For example, the title track on Shelby Lynne's 'Just A Little Loving' that starts out with drums and very little instrumentation has a snare rimshot that sounds more like wood blocks - doesn't have that 'snap' to it. On other systems - or on my own system in the other orientation (described in the next post below), the rimshot sounds great - as there is more upper frequency energy.
 

MadFloyd

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The fireplace orientation is something like this:
Fireplace location.jpg

The measurements for the speakers in this position:

Speakers on the Fireplace wall.JPG


What is puzzling me is that with both orientations I've made sure to mimic the speaker setup. Same distance from wall. Same distance apart. Same toe-in, same distance to listening position. Play something without any bass (to rule out masking etc) and there's a huge difference in perception of the highs.

What would be causing this? Any ideas of how I could get more high frequencies with the window wall orientation?

Thanks in advance for any insight.
 

MadFloyd

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do you think that some of the room constraints might be due to the lack of a left wall and being open to the kitchen

No idea what that does to the highs. Even with the speakers on the fireplace wall there is an opening (by the rack) to a staircase and that plays a role.

Not ideal either way for sure. I'll never expect perfection. I'm just mostly curious about the highs. Do they need to reflect on side walls to gain some amplitude? If so, are they reflecting off the sidewalls when oriented by the fireplace (even though the walls aren't that close)?
 

DonH50

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Sound reflects so any difference in the walls, ceiling, floor, and even tables and such between you and the speakers can influence the sound you hear. A wall on one side and opening on the other is a common problem that does causes significant differences in sound.

You might want to check the techie thread for a graph of wavelength versus frequency so you know about how long a surface matters (it is about 1 foot, or ~1/3 m, at 1 kHz). Anything from 1/4 to 1/2 wavelength can greatly change the sound at a given frequency.

Table of Contents: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?2829-Don-s-Tech-Series
Wavelength Thread: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3369-Wavelength-vs.-Frequency&p=52128#post52128

HTH - Don
 

MadFloyd

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Thanks, Don.

One thing that I forgot to mention is that the perceived difference in high frequencies isn't just noticed at the listening chair, but just in general - anywhere in the room.
 

audioarcher

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Try moving the speakers around incrementally from where they are now. Even a small change can make a big difference. Use some tape on the floor to mark where your speakers are now for a reference. Once you find a better sounding position mark that spot with tape and keep trying different positions until you are satisfied you have the best sounding position. You could also make a grid with tape on the floor so you can better keep track of where you have moved your speakers.
 

MadFloyd

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You have Sashas. Have you used Wilsons technique of slap echo for best position of speakers. I also thought your toe in was more extreme than what I'm used to with Wilson speakers

No, haven't done the Wilson method per se, but I have played with toe in and currently have it halfway between being straight forward and aimed at ears. In other words, I can see a fair amount of the inside of the speakers from the listening position.
 

FrantzM

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Hi

You do have two subs. I suppose they can be equalized...

First mark the speakers current position. Masking tape will do.

Then move the speakers forward IOW Increase their distance from the back wall. If possible on casters that would be the best, again I don't know if the Sashas can be fitted with casters. Still, try to move them half a foot out in the room ...
Keep the toe in so that you are at the apex of a triangle at the listening position. Listen .. Listen in particular to things you know well. Look for changes in imaging, overall tonality, voices, soundstage etc .. Do not mind about the bass just yet ...
Move the speaker a little bit in and out. Do keep it a good distance off the wall ...
If you manage to find the positon where they image the best and provide with the best tonality say from 500 Hz up. leave them there .. You have access to measuring equipment Measure the response then listen carefully, the sound is bound to change when you move speakers around ... If you feel comfortable with the position then ...

Bring the subwoofers in .. EQ if possible smoothing bass tend to make things more articulate in the upper frequencies , paradoxically ...

You may need a strong person to help you move these around and you need to be patient ..

let us know


P.S. make note of everything, including subs settings, level, crossover frequency and slope, etc
 
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MadFloyd

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Thanks, Frantz, I appreciate the help.

Moving the speakers is effortless because I have special casters underneath the spikes. For me the speakers come alive when they are about 36" off the wall, but from past experience (feels like I've had them everywhere over the past few months) it doesn't seem to matter where I have them with regard to the recessed high frequencies. Something in the orientation of the speakers and how they interact with the room.

I am hiring Jim Smith to come and voice my system in the early new year so fine tuning and sub integration will hopefully be done then. Of course I'll probably keep experimenting since I listen often. I just wish I understood more about how high frequencies interacted with the room.
 

FrantzM

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Thanks, Frantz, I appreciate the help.

Moving the speakers is effortless because I have special casters underneath the spikes. For me the speakers come alive when they are about 36" off the wall, but from past experience (feels like I've had them everywhere over the past few months) it doesn't seem to matter where I have them with regard to the recessed high frequencies. Something in the orientation of the speakers and how they interact with the room.

I am hiring Jim Smith to come and voice my system in the early new year so fine tuning and sub integration will hopefully be done then. Of course I'll probably keep experimenting since I listen often. I just wish I understood more about how high frequencies interacted with the room.

You're welcome ... Far from me to suggest to you how you should enjoy the fruits of your labor .. but if you have confidence with the person who will come to fine tune the system. Measure with him and if you find yourself satisfied, listen and see how far or how close your system is to the real thing. We often come to like the way our system sounds and it is quite often wrong in term of verisimilitude.

Little anecdote... We had, mid to late 70's, I was a teen-ager, a pair of Bozark "something" at home .. wide speaker but rather low with two 12 or 15 inches and a tweeter well below ear level even when you sat on a low chair... maybe if you would seat on the floor :) ... The Bozark went away to be replaced by a pair of Yamaha NS-1000M ... We found the Yamaha very pure in the midrange however the highs were in our opinion a little too much .. especially on solo violin .. until we paid attention to violin played live in the Living room, the system if anything was lacking in extension ... We got to be used to the warm, round and treble-lacking sound of the system with the Bozark!! It made everything sweet and syrupy ...

Do listen to the system after it has been fine-tuned and resist the temptation to constantly "experiment" .. listen to music both live and through the system, it could be quite an experience .. Headphones may help too, they are usually by order of magnitude more neutral than speakers and take the room entirely out of the reproduction ...

I don't know Jim Smith and this should not be construed as an endorsement or anythingM .. Only offering my opinion and suggestion to Madfloyd
 

Steve Williams

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I would still try to find a simple way to add something in place of the absent left wall. IMO I feel that's the source of the issue. The other thing you also must remember is that there might be a slight upper end roll off with Wilson peakers
 

A.wayne

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There is very little difference between the two graphs referenced at 1k, so positioning is not your problem , there is something else changing when you move the speakers ,something you are over looking, cables maybe, where you plug the amplifiers in etc ...is it all the same ...?

What system are you using to measure ....?
 

mep

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I wouldn't use that Shelby Lynne recording to judge anything unless you want to check for overblown bass. I for one will be quite interested to hear what you have to say about your system after Jim Smith sets it up.
 

MadFloyd

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There is very little difference between the two graphs referenced at 1k, so positioning is not your problem , there is something else changing when you move the speakers ,something you are over looking, cables maybe, where you plug the amplifiers in etc ...is it all the same ...?

What system are you using to measure ....?

I'm using REW software, an RME Fireface 400 sound interface with an Earthworks M30 microphone (calibrated for measuring).

There is no difference in equipment whatsoever. I simply move the speakers (and one amp so that the speaker cables reach).
 

MadFloyd

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When measuring mid to high frequencies, you want to use high amount of filtering. The ear's resolution is around 1/6 octave (see this article I wrote on why: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/RoomReflections.html). So tell REW to use this to get more accurate perception of what you are hearing. It will make it easier to compare settings that way.

Thanks, Amir. I've been using 1/12th (primarily for the bass region) but I'll switch to 1/6th for high frequencies as you suggest.
 

MadFloyd

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I would still try to find a simple way to add something in place of rthe absent left wall. IMO I feel that's the source of the issue. The other thing you also must remember is that there might be a slight upper end roll off with Wilson peakers

Really? I've always thought the Sashas were quite extended compared to other systems I've heard.
 

JackD201

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Look up at your ceiling ;)
 

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