Mono cart vs. Stereo cart for Mono recs cut on stereo lath...

rockitman · Nov 25, 2012

So my friend Bill Demars loaned me an Ikeda Mono cart to compare against my playback with a stereo cart. I have done a few back to back songs with each arm and cart.

Initial impressions:

1) Mono cart seems to pick up less surface noise...just a little bit.
2) Mono cart seems to have more extended and defined bass.
3) Mono cart appears to create a wider, more dynamic soundstage.

Those that have mono carts, are these some of the characteristics you hear when playing a mono record (re-issue) with mono cart vs. a stereo cart ?

My stereo cart is Koetsu Coralstone on a Graham Phantom Supreme. The Ikeda mono is on a Clearaudio Universal gimbal bearing arm.

Mike Lavigne · Nov 25, 2012

rockitman said:
So my friend Bill Demars loaned me an Ikeda Mono cart to compare against my playback with a stereo cart. I have done a few back to back songs with each arm and cart.

Initial impressions:

1) Mono cart seems to pick up less surface noise...just a little bit.
2) Mono cart seems to have more extended and defined bass.
3) Mono cart appears to create a wider, more dynamic soundstage.

Those that have mono carts, are these some of the characteristics you hear when playing a mono record (re-issue) with mono cart vs. a stereo cart ?

My stereo cart is Koetsu Coralstone on a Graham Phantom Supreme. The Ikeda mono is on a Clearaudio Universal gimbal bearing arm.

you got it.

notice that the modest priced mono cart and arm still surpass the big buck stereo cart and arm.

and the more you play the mono pressings, the more you will notice how they make you feel about the music.....very direct connection to the event.

were these modern re-issue monos you played? or deep groove 50's or 60's pressings?

rockitman · Nov 25, 2012

Mike Lavigne said:
you got it.

notice that the modest priced mono cart and arm still surpass the big buck stereo cart and arm.

and the more you play the mono pressings, the more you will notice how they make you feel about the music.....very direct connection to the event.

were these modern re-issue monos you played? or deep groove 50's or 60's pressings?

Yup...much to my chagrin.

It's all good. Need to buy a mono for all that Blue Note Jazz.

Mike Lavigne · Nov 25, 2012

rockitman said:
Yup...much to my chagrin. It's all good. Need to buy a mono for all that Blue Note Jazz.

i like the Miyajima Premium Mono Be--$1250 retail. there is a new Miyajima 'Zero' that i would likely buy now that's $2k which i heard at RMAF.

rockitman · Nov 25, 2012

This Ikeda 9TT Mono retail msrp is like $5K from what I understand...It sure does sound good. I think I like the sound of mono Jazz better than stereo for the most part now. I am kind of floored by the improvement....

Mike Lavigne · Nov 26, 2012

rockitman said:
This Ikeda 9TT Mono retail msrp is like $5K from what I understand...It sure does sound good. I think I like the sound of mono Jazz better than stereo for the most part now. I am kind of floored by the improvement....

my favorite Stereo jazz pressings are still my favorite over the mono's as good as they are. the mono's are 'different'.

however.....Jazdoc does prefer the Mono's....and he is the expert about them.

rockitman · Nov 26, 2012

Mike Lavigne said:
my favorite Stereo jazz pressings are still my favorite over the mono's as good as they are. the mono's are 'different'.

however.....Jazdoc does prefer the Mono's....and he is the expert about them.

Ellington Jazz Party...Great stereo. Some Jazz stereo's get a little too ping/pong from speaker to speaker for me w/o enough mix in the middle. Mixes like that for me, mono reigns supreme, imho of course.

rockitman · Nov 26, 2012

another benefit...I use my second arm now. With two arms with stereo carts, one usually picks the best arm stereo cart setup... now with a mono cart that appears to sound better by a significant margin over the stereo setup, I get to use my other arm...a win win situation !

Mike Lavigne · Nov 26, 2012

rockitman said:
another benefit...I use my second arm now. With two arms with stereo carts, one usually picks the best arm stereo cart setup... now with a mono cart that appears to sound better by a significant margin over the stereo setup, I get to use my other arm...a win win situation !

that is how it progressed for me too. once you have a 'go to' stereo arm/cart another arm just sat there for me. the mono makes more sense.

mep · Nov 26, 2012

I always wondered why guys would have two arms and cartridges on a table because one of the two will sound better and the other arm/cartridge would just sit there and look cool. But now since my mono collection is starting to grow a bit, I’m thinking it would be cool to have another arm set up to play back mono recordings. I just wish my Krell KPE Reference phono stage had two inputs. That would be somewhat of a drag to unplug the stereo arm and then plug in the mono arm. It would be a real drag if you had change the loading and gain between the set ups because that would mean unplugging the power supply, unhooking the P/S cable from the phono stage, pulling the phono stage out of the rack, taking the top cover off and resetting the switches, and then reverse the procedure in order to play music.

rockitman · Nov 26, 2012

mep said:
I always wondered why guys would have two arms and cartridges on a table because one of the two will sound better and the other arm/cartridge would just sit there and look cool. But now since my mono collection is starting to grow a bit, I’m thinking it would be cool to have another arm set up to play back mono recordings. I just wish my Krell KPE Reference phono stage had two inputs. That would be somewhat of a drag to unplug the stereo arm and then plug in the mono arm. It would be a real drag if you had change the loading and gain between the set ups because that would mean unplugging the power supply, unhooking the P/S cable from the phono stage, pulling the phono stage out of the rack, taking the top cover off and resetting the switches, and then reverse the procedure in order to play music.

two inputs are nice. In the case of My Stereo Koetsu and the Ikeda mono....they both are being loaded at 100 ohms, so no change needed there when I switch over from stereo to mono. I am quite shocked by the improvement I hear playing mono lp's on a mono cart.

jazdoc · Nov 26, 2012

rockitman said:
two inputs are nice. In the case of My Stereo Koetsu and the Ikeda mono....they both are being loaded at 100 ohms, so no change needed there when I switch over from stereo to mono. I am quite shocked by the improvement I hear playing mono lp's on a mono cart.

Bingo!

A couple other things about collecting mono...unless you chase original Blue Notes, etc, they are generally cheaper. As you have noted, because a mono record played with a dedicated mono cartridge is typically quieter (oft times much quieter), you can gamble on a cheap VG+ record.

mep · Nov 26, 2012

I didn’t start off looking for mono records. When I go to my local record store and thumb through the Jazz, I just start picking LPs out that I want to hear without even looking at whether they were mono or stereo. The funny thing is that my mono recordings played back through my stereo cartridge throw a big soundstage (and my records are all quiet). The thought that the mono records would even sound better still played back through a mono cartridge is very enticing. I have a used copy of the British EMI mono version of Sgt. Pepper including the funky looking inner sleeve. I just wasn’t impressed with it the only time I tried to play it. But maybe with a mono cartridge…

jazdoc · Nov 26, 2012

rockitman said:
Ellington Jazz Party...Great stereo. Some Jazz stereo's get a little too ping/pong from speaker to speaker for me w/o enough mix in the middle. Mixes like that for me, mono reigns supreme, imho of course.

Christian,
Funny you mention this LP because I own original mono and stereo 6-eyes and this is one of the few I prefer in stereo!

. I've heard the single sided 45 rpm Classic recording which has much more center fill when compared to the original 6 eye.

rockitman · Nov 26, 2012

jazdoc said:
Bingo!

A couple other things about collecting mono...unless you chase original Blue Notes, etc, they are generally cheaper. As you have noted, because a mono record played with a dedicated mono cartridge is typically quieter (oft times much quieter), you can gamble on a cheap VG+ record.

That's good to know Doc. I usually only buy NM (stereo), so being able to buy a VG+ (for mono's) opens up the options quite a bit.

bblue · Nov 26, 2012

rockitman said:
So my friend Bill Demars loaned me an Ikeda Mono cart to compare against my playback with a stereo cart. I have done a few back to back songs with each arm and cart.

Initial impressions:

1) Mono cart seems to pick up less surface noise...just a little bit.
2) Mono cart seems to have more extended and defined bass.
3) Mono cart appears to create a wider, more dynamic soundstage.

Those that have mono carts, are these some of the characteristics you hear when playing a mono record (re-issue) with mono cart vs. a stereo cart ?

My stereo cart is Koetsu Coralstone on a Graham Phantom Supreme. The Ikeda mono is on a Clearaudio Universal gimbal bearing arm.

Rockitman,

To be an Apples to Apples comparison, the stereo cartridge or system must be run in mono to produce anything completely comparable to a mono cartridge, as the mono cartridge is completely oblivious to vertical modulation of the stylus. Background noise of the vinyl, various distortion products due to mistracking or mistracing, tics and pops that are not common to both channels, almost completely disappear, since they present as a difference signal (vertical modulation). A carefully aligned and balanced stereo cartridge should exhibit very similar behavior when the L&R channels are summed to mono.

In your point #3, how could a mono playback (whether stereo mono'd, or mono cartridge) have a wider soundstage? It would not have any width in the soundstage at all, unless the placement of the speakers or the room they're in are producing it. The 'soundstage' should appear as one channel originating between the speakers. No width at all.

--Bill

rockitman · Nov 26, 2012

bblue said:
Rockitman,
A carefully aligned and balanced stereo cartridge should exhibit very similar behavior when the L&R channels are summed to mono.

I have run the stereo cart with the mono switch on the preamp...the sound is rather lifeless, so I prefered playback with the stereo cart in stereo for mono records prior to having a mono cart.

In your point #3, how could a mono playback (whether stereo mono'd, or mono cartridge) have a wider soundstage? It would not have any width in the soundstage at all, unless the placement of the speakers or the room they're in are producing it. The 'soundstage' should appear as one channel originating between the speakers. No width at all.

There must be some illusion going on as the soundfield does appear to widen and deepen listening to this mono cart than listening to the same with the stereo cart. I just set it up last night so perhaps my opinion will change with more use and experimentation.

--Bill

Thanks for you insights.

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Mono cart vs. Stereo cart for Mono recs cut on stereo lath...

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