Lenco L75

microstrip · Nov 2, 2012

Looking for opinions about some recent very expensive tonearms I found that a few people use them in modified Lenco L75's - a turntable that still can be bought easily in Germany in excellent condition around 200 euros. Does any of our members have experience with systems using those heavily modified L75's?

Yes, I have now seen the Jean Nantais site and know it is a cult turntable.

flez007 · Nov 2, 2012

I just heard a modified one at RMAF last year, there is some house-sound from idlers that is attractive for some. I liked it.

puroagave · Nov 2, 2012

the lenco heads hang out here: http://www.lencoheaven.net/

Ive heard a few L75s in the context of a SET/tube horn system and i was impressed, but then your objectivity goes out the window because you just know the system deviates from neutrality but sounds ohh-so-good at the same time.

hvbias · Nov 3, 2012

I have heard a Nantais Lenco in a local system with Tri-Planar and UNIverse. Fantastic turntable.

MylesBAstor · Nov 4, 2012

puroagave said:
the lenco heads hang out here: http://www.lencoheaven.net/

Ive heard a few L75s in the context of a SET/tube horn system and i was impressed, but then your objectivity goes out the window because you just know the system deviates from neutrality but sounds ohh-so-good at the same time.

Yes that's an interesting paradox about SET and horns.

Funny thing is that SET amps haven't gone away.

bblue · Nov 4, 2012

microstrip said:
Looking for opinions about some recent very expensive tonearms I found that a few people use them in modified Lenco L75's - a turntable that still can be bought easily in Germany in excellent condition around 200 euros. Does any of our members have experience with systems using those heavily modified L75's?

Yes, I have now seen the Jean Nantais site and know it is a cult turntable.

I have one (L-78 in a Nantais Custom II plinth) here with an ET2 on it.

While it does do a pretty decent job, it's not without issues. For one, speed isn't 100% stable, though better than most belt drives with DC motors. The whole thing 'works' because of the 100+lb plinth and some custom tweaks for lower noise. Still as with most suspension-less turntables, it's very fussy over the stability of the stand and floor it sits on. Coupling, decoupling and auxiliary weight needs tuning to keep the noise down. 100 lbs isn't nearly enough, more like 150 is needed, along with a very rigid stand.

The drive system needs to be carefully set up for minimum noise transferred to the platter. The JN plinth construction is a little on the crude side, but generally ok if you don't look too closely and like big blocks of wood.

Out of the box mine had a number of problems which I had to resolve despite protests from JN (who can do no wrong). It's pretty decent right now, but I'm not convinced it will be tomorrow. In summary, it has been a constant time drain to optimize to the performance levels I expected, though it really does perform well when everything is 'just so'.

I'd rather have something costing twice as much, looking a bit flashier/newer, and with less attendant overhead. But if you like to tweak and improve, a lot can be done.

The basic Lenco design has some very clever (and subtle) drive train engineering that is already quite good (especially being 50+ years old now), but can stand a few 21st century improvements. The turntable as a system was limited mostly by a low cost target price, cheesy original plinth and tonearm.

--Bill

Wrm57 · Jan 27, 2013

Picking up an old thread, I have a Nantais Reference Lenco. Two years old, it is a Mk I, I guess, by his new designation. I had Jean make it with solid Santos mahogany sheathing and two arms boards. Unlike some of his earlier woodwork, which people have reported as being rather crude, the fit and finish on this one is quite good. The speed is pretty stable but tends to run a little fast over time, so I re-set with a KAB every few months. Otherwise, it is trouble-free. I like the sound a lot, and don't find it to be too colored--perhaps a bit thickened in the lower mids. Noise floor is low and detail retrieval is very good. I ran a Clearaudio Innovation Wood next to it in the same system for nearly two years, so I had a fairly neutral frame of reference. The Clearaudio was a little quieter (though not by much) and more extended (again, not by much) with sharper attack. But I thought it a little more mechanical and less organic, more like great digital. Speed stability over the short term was a toss up, which is saying something, since the Clearaudio has optical speed correction. Ultimately, I preferred the Lenco and sold the Clearaudio, though I hasten to add that the Innovation Wood is a wonderful turntable and I thoroughly enjoyed it. The Lenco is just a little more to my taste. Now, a Brinkmann Oasis is on the way as a second deck, which should provide another interesting comparison.

Here's a pic:

Best,
Bill

daytona600 · Jan 27, 2013

lenco still going strong after 50years with new rebuilt versions from inspire & PTP

301 401 TD124 SP10 SL1200 just will not die , looking forward to our grandchilden rebuilding 50 year old Cd players & Servers !!!!! yeah right

http://www.inspirehifi.co.uk/enigma.html
http://www.ptpaudio.com/ptp-audio.html

hvbias · Jan 29, 2013

Wrm57 said:
Picking up an old thread, I have a Nantais Reference Lenco. Two years old, it is a Mk I, I guess, by his new designation. I had Jean make it with solid Santos mahogany sheathing and two arms boards. Unlike some of his earlier woodwork, which people have reported as being rather crude, the fit and finish on this one is quite good. The speed is pretty stable but tends to run a little fast over time, so I re-set with a KAB every few months. Otherwise, it is trouble-free. I like the sound a lot, and don't find it to be too colored--perhaps a bit thickened in the lower mids. Noise floor is low and detail retrieval is very good. I ran a Clearaudio Innovation Wood next to it in the same system for nearly two years, so I had a fairly neutral frame of reference. The Clearaudio was a little quieter (though not by much) and more extended (again, not by much) with sharper attack. But I thought it a little more mechanical and less organic, more like great digital. Speed stability over the short term was a toss up, which is saying something, since the Clearaudio has optical speed correction. Ultimately, I preferred the Lenco and sold the Clearaudio, though I hasten to add that the Innovation Wood is a wonderful turntable and I thoroughly enjoyed it. The Lenco is just a little more to my taste. Now, a Brinkmann Oasis is on the way as a second deck, which should provide another interesting comparison.

Here's a pic:

View attachment 7937

Best,
Bill

Very nice turntable Bill. How does that Nantais handle switching between 33 and 45 rpm? And is it mahogany throughout the entire plinth?

Wrm57 · Jan 29, 2013

Thanks, Deepak. Like most Lencos, RPM switching is done with a lever that repositions the idler wheel along a tapered drive axle (that probably has a technical name I don't know). I've actually never played a 45 on it, so I can't say how well it holds that speed, but I suspect it would be the same as a 33 (or 78).

The plinth is only covered in mahogany--an inch thick on the sides and a little less than a half-inch on top. The construction itself is multi-layered with what appears to be birch ply, MDF (or some sort of fiberboard), and some other kind of layer that Jean is secretive about. The armboards look to be purpleheart with a top layer of mahogany. They vary in width (I had six made) between .75 and nearly 2 inches and bolt into the plinth with six massive brass bolts for an extremely solid attachment.

Bill

hvbias · Jan 29, 2013

Wrm57 said:
Thanks, Deepak. Like most Lencos, RPM switching is done with a lever that repositions the idler wheel along a tapered drive axle (that probably has a technical name I don't know). I've actually never played a 45 on it, so I can't say how well it holds that speed, but I suspect it would be the same as a 33 (or 78).

The plinth is only covered in mahogany--an inch thick on the sides and a little less than a half-inch on top. The construction itself is multi-layered with what appears to be birch ply, MDF (or some sort of fiberboard), and some other kind of layer that Jean is secretive about. The armboards look to be purpleheart with a top layer of mahogany. They vary in width (I had six made) between .75 and nearly 2 inches and bolt into the plinth with six massive brass bolts for an extremely solid attachment.

Bill

Thanks, I wasn't sure if Jean had resorted to something other than moving the idler wheel for speed switching. There has been an ongoing development for an electronic speed switch that I've been waiting for.

I have another friend with a Garrard 301 and Dyna XV-1s setup. I prefer the Nantais Lenco with UNIverse myself

Wrm57 · Jan 29, 2013

I think, in an email some time back, he might have mentioned working on an electronic speed switch. But I doubt it's near completion--if, indeed, he was developing it.

paskinn · Jan 30, 2013

MylesBAstor said:
Yes that's an interesting paradox about SET and horns. Funny thing is that SET amps haven't gone away.

I use a SET {audionote jinro} and horns {don't ask!} but haven't really been convinced by the whole idler wheel thing, you know, Garrad 301/401/ Thorens 124 , and now Lenco.For me, there is too much tendency toward noise and a slight coarseness (I generalise, because you have to ). Hi Fi World here in the UK did an article about a modded Lenco (Inspire Audio) but there seemed real issues about speed stability.Still, I much enjoy all these 'left field' approaches to the hobby.Anarchy reigns. Talking of which, at some point I'l give details of my voigt dometic corner horns (designed 1934) used with modern Voxativ field coils.But that's another story.

hvbias · Jan 30, 2013

paskinn said:
I use a SET {audionote jinro} and horns {don't ask!} but haven't really been convinced by the whole idler wheel thing, you know, Garrad 301/401/ Thorens 124 , and now Lenco.For me, there is too much tendency toward noise and a slight coarseness (I generalise, because you have to ). Hi Fi World here in the UK did an article about a modded Lenco (Inspire Audio) but there seemed real issues about speed stability.Still, I much enjoy all these 'left field' approaches to the hobby.Anarchy reigns. Talking of which, at some point I'l give details of my voigt dometic corner horns (designed 1934) used with modern Voxativ field coils.But that's another story.

I don't think the generalizations like rumble or speed stability apply to ones that are properly built in good plinths. In the designs I have heard basically the only thing that is stock about them is the motor, platter and maybe idler pulley. Idler wheel, bearings, plinth, etc have all been replaced.

If we hold these generalizations for the various technologies then belt drives should all have pitch issues, but it's not the case. I wouldn't be using a belt drive turntable if mine had pitch problems

Or if all direct drive turntables sounded like a Technics SL-1200, I doubt the Wave Kinetics turntable would have ever got off the ground.

paskinn · Jan 30, 2013

The problem is that faced with complex issues, we need to sometimes use generalisations.It is part of the tools of general communications...not every remark can be highly specific and incapable of qualification . thus it seems fair to point to issues such as speed stability and noise, the remarks could be both 'generalisations' and broadly true.On a less 'linquistic' point, I imagine that Schopper, in Germany, might be a good place for an overhaul. These are old, old, decks.Bits such as idler wheels don't wear very well over such long periods.At the risk of another broad point (there will indeed be exceptions)beware of audio 'cults'...they tend to ignore the downside of their favourite products, because they just love them.I know, because I am a member of two such 'cults'....SET amps and single-driver full-range horns.I adore them, but there are always problems, which brings us back to Lenco and the idler-wheel enthusiasts.I think it was the Sargeant in'Hill Street blues' who used to warn: 'Be careful out there.'

hvbias · Jan 30, 2013

paskinn said:
At the risk of another broad point (there will indeed be exceptions)beware of audio 'cults'...they tend to ignore the downside of their favourite products

Absolutely, I agree on this point. I tend to take the postings of anti- groups (digital, vinyl, solid state, tube, etc) with a grain of salt just like those that are only a proponent of a certain technology. Objective criteria can help verify or dispel some myths as well. If there was rumble showing up on a digitized file from a frequency sweep test LP or repeated bouts of speed instability that would be a turnoff for me. At least with regard to rumble the Nantais Lenco performed very well. Speed stability was only tested once at time of listening, so I can't comment on its long term stability.

No Regrets · Apr 28, 2013

Wrm57 said:
Picking up an old thread, I have a Nantais Reference Lenco. Two years old, it is a Mk I, I guess, by his new designation. I had Jean make it with solid Santos mahogany sheathing and two arms boards. Unlike some of his earlier woodwork, which people have reported as being rather crude, the fit and finish on this one is quite good. The speed is pretty stable but tends to run a little fast over time, so I re-set with a KAB every few months. Otherwise, it is trouble-free. I like the sound a lot, and don't find it to be too colored--perhaps a bit thickened in the lower mids. Noise floor is low and detail retrieval is very good. I ran a Clearaudio Innovation Wood next to it in the same system for nearly two years, so I had a fairly neutral frame of reference. The Clearaudio was a little quieter (though not by much) and more extended (again, not by much) with sharper attack. But I thought it a little more mechanical and less organic, more like great digital. Speed stability over the short term was a toss up, which is saying something, since the Clearaudio has optical speed correction. Ultimately, I preferred the Lenco and sold the Clearaudio, though I hasten to add that the Innovation Wood is a wonderful turntable and I thoroughly enjoyed it. The Lenco is just a little more to my taste. Now, a Brinkmann Oasis is on the way as a second deck, which should provide another interesting comparison.

Here's a pic:

View attachment 7937

Best,
Bill

Hey Bill,

How's that Brinkman Oasis sounding? Any comparisons you'd like to share with us?

Thanks much!

Wrm57 · Apr 28, 2013

I really like the Oasis. Timing cues, articulation of instruments, focus, quietness of background, speed stability all are outstanding. I find it to be quite neutral sonically--neither warm nor cool, soft nor edgy, imparting little character of its own. The Innovation Wood brought a faster, brighter personality to everything. I liked that deck but don't miss it. My Reference Lenco is somewhat fuller and richer than the Oasis with more visceral drive if less superfine filigree. But that's my old Reference Lenco Mk I, which is in Ottawa being upgraded to Mk. II status as I type. The new version should have improvements in overall clarity, fine detail, and speed stability.

The Oasis really needs good vibration control because it transmits whatever it picks up. I have it on a Minus-K, as I did the Innovation. Its screw-down clamp also takes some getting used to. Screw down too little and it sounds a little thin and hard, probably due to the integral ground-crystal platter mat; screw down too much and the dynamics become dull. I developed a system and can nail it pretty much automatically now, but it took some experimentation. Otherwise, it's a joy to use.

All in all, a wonderful turntable.

Mosin · Apr 28, 2013

microstrip said:
Looking for opinions about some recent very expensive tonearms I found that a few people use them in modified Lenco L75's - a turntable that still can be bought easily in Germany in excellent condition around 200 euros. Does any of our members have experience with systems using those heavily modified L75's?

Yes, I have now seen the Jean Nantais site and know it is a cult turntable.

I built a Lenco before I started manufacturing an idler drive turntable, and the resulting sound surprised me. I still play it frequently on a secondary system with a Schroeder Model 2 tonearm. Here's a photo of it.

I believe that almost anyone with at least average mechanical skills can transform a Lenco into a turntable that rivals virtually anything below 10K, if that person puts forth effort to explore the possibilities.

Dimfer · Apr 28, 2013

here is my Bogen Presto setup (L70). I bought it rebuilt/reconditioned already, from a guy who has rebuilt a few Lencos before... He incorporated the tweaks popularized by Jean Nantais. I had since added more damping and DIY'ed a cork platter mat, and wrapped it to have the carbon fiber look. It may not have the ultimate silence of belt drives, but I am very happy with it's performance as it is.

Lenco L75

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