Audio shows....Is it your observations that the music is too loud?

treitz3

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Good evening ladies and gentlemen of the forum. I thought I'd ask a simple question [maybe not] that is a very important aspect to me about the auditioning of gear at audio events. To often than not, the music is to loud. With just this aspect and no other excuse or aspect as to why a system may not sound as well as it could, I feel it skews both the audiophiles observations as well as the new guy who is curious to hear about our hobby. What might be your thoughts on this?

Tom
 

microstrip

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Good evening ladies and gentlemen of the forum. I thought I'd ask a simple question [maybe not] that is a very important aspect to me about the auditioning of gear at audio events. To often than not, the music is to loud. With just this aspect and no other excuse or aspect as to why a system may not sound as well as it could, I feel it skews both the audiophiles observations as well as the new guy who is curious to hear about our hobby. What might be your thoughts on this?

Tom

Yes, Tom. 95% of the rooms play the music too loud. Even high quality systems suffer from this problem. Curiously I have observed that most of time the non offenders are using high efficiency speakers. Perhaps as this speakers are usually more directional they do not need to be played very loud.

The worst victims of these bad practice are electrostatics - they try to play loud and they fail miserably. The Quad room is usually a tragedy, specially after they got the two extra-panels and the demonstrators want us to believe they can play rock!
 

asiufy

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No, I didn't think so, at least not at this last RMAF, or the local hi-end shows.
I do like to hear loud at home, though, 90dB+


alexandre
 

treitz3

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Hello, asiufy. There is nothing wrong with listening loud. In fact, I would say that having a system that would make you want to listen louder is one of the prerequisites of auditioning.

Tom
 

amirm

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I don't remember them being too loud. And at any rate, I like the volume up so that I can hear the detail.
 

treitz3

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Hello, Amir and thanks for chiming in. That's partly my point. One should hear the detail at any volume level, not just at a loud volume. "Detail" at loud volume is somewhat easy in the audio world. Having that same detail at lower volumes is for me along with others is or can be...

Priceless.

Tom
 

JackD201

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Personally, the more complete a system sounds at lower volume, the higher I rate it. If it can rock as well that's the cherry on top.

On the subject of shows, there's a catch 22: the crowds. As an exhibitor we often need to crank it at peak hours. Then when we do, it becomes standing room only. Aaaarghhhhh!!!!! The solution we've come across is to invite the folks who seem very interested (the ones with the lusty look on their faces) to come back at certain hours. Sunday Morning is usually the best. We hand 'em the remotes and let them have a go with their own material and at their own pace. 9 out of 10 times, they listen at low levels.
 

treitz3

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Personally, the more complete a system sounds at lower volume, the higher I rate it. If it can rock as well that's the cherry on top.
Hello, Jack. Are you by chance the brother from another mother I never knew about? Wow. Eye to eye on that one and what an astute observation. Have you ever tried lowering the volume at a show you held?

Tom
 

JackD201

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Every chance we get Tom. 3 days of high SPL is no fun. We have lots of other brothers here :)

Sad thing is if you play softly all the time, people will just pass your room by so we have to really mix up the musical material and match these with the levels associated with them.
 

audioarcher

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May 6, 2012
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At this years RMAF there was only a couple rooms that i visited that were were too loud for my taste. A few times there was someone across the hall from the room I was in playing their system so loud I could almost hear it as well as the system in the room I was in. In these cases I was not sure why the exhibitors insisted on leaving their doors open? As for the ones blasting out their neighbors I generally did not visit them.

I did visit one room that was playing classical music at a very low level. Classical at low levels puts me to sleep. I got bored and left shortly thereafter. I could have asked them to turn it up some but I was a little burnt out by then and decided to just move on to the next room.
 

Bill Hart

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May 11, 2012
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I can't speak to trade shows because, aside from the fact that I don't spend much time at them, I think the variables and challenges are enormous, from bad room acoustics to the changes in sound caused by the presence or absence of bodies, funky electrical, bleed through of other rooms, ambient noise, etc. But I can make some observations about my own listening at home:
You guys know that 'turning it up' doesn't usually make a system more involving, even though that's often the reason why people crank the volume- to get a more immediate, closer to real, less reproduced sound. And often, just the opposite happens. A mediocre system doesn't sound better being played louder, and doesn't sound more immediate, or real. It's just louder, and if it is not good to begin with, it's gonna be even worse when it's louder.So, I agree that the challenge is to get the system to resolve so well, and have the noise floor so low, that you 'get' the music at lower volumes and still have dynamic contrasts, bass, tonality and an 'in the room' sense- not just a recording playing out of boxes.
Yet, there is, I think, for every recording (or at least the good ones, where it counts, one that has dynamics and a nice 'acoustic' to it, and good tone), a 'natural' volume that is just right. Whether it is the recording, or the recording in combination with the system and the room it's in (they all make up part of the system in a sense), there is that spot on the dial where it's just right for a given recording , and seems natural for the scale of the particular music, not too loud, but just loud enough to sound realistic. (Granted, singers are almost always amplified, as are so are many acoustic instruments, in a live venue, but still).
At home, i typically listen at levels even below that. I've found, as I've gotten older, that I don't want music blaring at me, even when it sounds good, and is right, and tonally correct and all that. It's like driving at 10/10's all the time- it's somehow overwhelming over the long haul. It's not listening fatigue, it's not harshness (my system is probably more sweet than harsh), it's just that my brain or my soul or me/myself and I can't process hours and hours of listening at full tilt (even when 'full' is 'natural level,' not too loud for the piece).
Of course, there are times when I will crank it, and am just amazed at how good, satisfying and realistic it can be. But most of the time, I can and do listen at a level below what I'm calling 'natural' and get an enormous amount of satisfaction out of the system.
So, what does that have to do with levels at shows~ almost nothing. I've whipped out a db meter at home on occasion and am pretty surprised at the levels I think are loud are actually not terribly loud. How does this correlate to what the majority of listeners at shows hear, or want or expect? I have no idea. The cynic in me says they just want those bright TVs at the box store show room effect, and what else can you really deliver in show conditions with a room full of people?
One of the best systems I heard at a show recently (and it's the only show I've attended in the last couple decades) was Robin Wyatt's old Quads playing some tape through a Charlie King tape set up. It wasn't terribly loud, but the material was also not the kind of stuff that you'd expect to be played at high db.
 

puroagave

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shows in general are too loud. the people manning the demos become desensitized to the loudness and at some point cant hear the distortion. at this years newport show i was in the Acapella room listening to some opera at pretty loud levels, you could hear distess in the mids, not the shouty kind but real distortion. i looked over at the old guy and woman running the demo and they were tapping their feet and swaying the heads like this was good somehow. i starred at them for like a minute and they didnt get it.

re old quads: i think most ESLs resolve the sound so well even at low levels you can literarly hear everthing.
 

Bruce B

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I had the system cranked in our room, but it was Metallica and Nirvana!
 

DaveyF

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A couple of years back, I went into one of the MBL rooms and couldn't believe how loud it was!:eek: So loud, that when the presenter talked, no on could clearly hear him. I suggested that the system be turned down, wherein the presenter looked at me and said something to the effect that if I didn't like it, I was free to leave:(. I guess several others felt the same, because they all asked for the same volume adjustment. Reluctantly, the presenter lowered the volume, a little. I didn't stay in that room for more aural punishment.
One of my pet peeves at any show is music played too loud:mad:...the other..Speakers placed right against or very near the rear wall:(. Nothing drives me from a room quicker.
 

Gregadd

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For a full range electrostatic exhibit that plays loud beautifully stop by the Sandersoundsystem room
 

rbbert

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Based on RAMF the last years, I would say the answer to the OP is "no". Some rooms were too loud, most were too quiet IMHO, but the biggest problem this year (compared to last year) was that the music itself was so much less interesting. Yes, it's certainly good to know if a system sounds good at low volumes, but I also want to know if it can play well at "realistic" volumes, for whatever type of music is playing.
 

ack

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Hello, Amir and thanks for chiming in. That's partly my point. One should hear the detail at any volume level, not just at a loud volume. "Detail" at loud volume is somewhat easy in the audio world. Having that same detail at lower volumes is for me along with others is or can be...

Priceless.

Tom

That's absolutely correct... eventually, having to turn the volume up to hear detail means the brain will be struggling at lower volumes, which eventually makes listening boring and fatiguing.
 

microstrip

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(...) Yet, there is, I think, for every recording (or at least the good ones, where it counts, one that has dynamics and a nice 'acoustic' to it, and good tone), a 'natural' volume that is just right. Whether it is the recording, or the recording in combination with the system and the room it's in (they all make up part of the system in a sense), there is that spot on the dial where it's just right for a given recording , and seems natural for the scale of the particular music, not too loud, but just loud enough to sound realistic. (...) .

Peter Walker of Quad said it long ago. If your system and room are properly tuned, the optimum level was settled by the recording engineer at the mastering phase. At this level everything seems "in focus". The need to change volume constantly and never being satisfied with loudness level is a clear indication of a poor system and room or a bad recording.
 

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