Dac with built in vol or Linestage with built in dac?

P.C.

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I was just interested to know hypothetically what approach member here would choice if Digital ( a CD Transport or computer etc) was their only source.
From between either a high end dac with a built in volume control (examples just of the top of my head) Wadia, Weiss , DCS and Bricasti M1 etc.
Or what seems to be a newer approach of an active high end line stage with built in Dac ( again for example only) Boulder 1012 dac, Manley Wave, Accuphase C-2110.
All things being equal which approach appeals to you the most and why. Thanks. (and a separate dac and line stage cannot to be an option)
 
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Bruce B

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Save yourself some money and get a Myted Stereo192/DSD DAC and go from your computer straight to your amps.
 

microstrip

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I was just interested to know hypothetically what approach member here would choice if Digital ( a CD Transport or computer etc) was their only source.
From between either a high end dac with a built in volume control (examples just of the top of my head) Wadia, Weiss , DCS and Bricasti M1 etc.
Or what seems to be a newer approach of an active high end line stage with built in Dac ( again for example only) Boulder 1012 dac, Manley Wave, Accuphase.
All things being equal which approach appeals to you the most and why. Thanks. (and a separate dac and line stage cannot to be an option)

I feel no one can suggest anything without knowing budget, existying system and your preferences.
 

P.C.

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I feel no one can suggest anything without knowing budget, existying system and your preferences.

Microstrip, sorry I though my post made it clear I'm not asking for specific suggestions for myself but which approach of the two options would YOU yourself go for and why.
Budget would be enough to cover such example I gave. Speakers and preferences (music etc) being your own.
I suppose what I'm asking is do you think ( in a one box option) prioritizing the digital ( dac with vol) would trump prioritizing a high end active line stage with a built in dac or not.
 
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LL21

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Hi PC...i am no techie. I think about your question...a good one...and in some respects, i realize the question sort of is: which is more important...DAC or preamp? Would i prefer a stunning DAC and so so preamp or vice versa? I think the former though its not a slam dunk answer. The guy who designs a killer DAC is hopefully going to make sure the preamp is as transparent as possible. I think this is borne out in a number of DAC-with-direct capability reviews that i have read.
 

P.C.

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Thanks lloydelee21 for getting the gist of question. I also understand your preference ( I myself currently own a Wadia 381 ) but generally those dacs with built in vol aren't really active preamps.
And still the general opinion of audiophiles is that even in a digital only system a high end active line stage/preamp is still better. Hence my question.
An example I remember from a number of years ago was the Mark Levinson 390s cd player which had a high quality analogue volume control but pretty much every review still though it sounded better using Levinson's separate active Levinson 380 line stage. So what would it have sounded like if the/a dac was built onto the 380 instead?
 
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LL21

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Thanks lloydelee21 for getting the gist of question. I also understand your preference ( I myself currently own a Wadia 381 ) but generally those dacs with built in vol aren't really active preamps.
And still the general opinion of audiophiles is tha teven in a digital only system a high end active line stage/preamp is still better. Hence my question.
An example I remember from a number of years ago was the Mark Levinson 390s cd player which had a high quality analogue volume control but pretty much every review still though it sounded better using Levinson's separate active Levinson 380 line stage. So what would it have sounded like if the/a dac was built onto the 380 instead?

Hi PC - in truth is my answer is i would probably aim to buy the best DAC possible...and if you find a preamp at some point in the future that is superior to the built-in one with the DAC...go for it.
 

dallasjustice

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What amp? You should know the input impedance and input sensitivity of your amp before you start down this road.
 

P.C.

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What amp? You should know the input impedance and input sensitivity of your amp before you start down this road.

Hello dallasjustice. Whichever amp that would work with your preference...either 1) A DAC with built in vol or 2) a dedicated active line stage with a built in dac ( see my original post for some hypothetically examples). Which option if you had to pick one would you you go for and why? Thats the original question.
 

AMP

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I'm going through some decisions surrounding this very question right now.

In my case I'm looking to build a second system in my office and am trying to decide between one of the following paths:

1) Complete separates - Amp / Pre / DAC (with or without transport)
2) DAC w/ volume control paired with separate amp
3) Completely integrated amp including a DAC section

What I'm finding is that from a cost perspective there are very good solutions to be had in each of the above options for similar money. That's making the decision much more difficult.

Digital, by its very nature, creates some interesting design issues which can elevate the complexity of an integrated component above that of separates. The power supply in a digital component is critical and if you look at some of the best digital products out there you'll see a complex and well-engineered set of tightly regulated supplies. My fear in building an all-in-one is that the designers may cut corners in this area and lead to a less-than-successful finished product.

In my experience adding a separate, purely analog, line stage always results in an overall benefit. I've tried the Wadia components directly into the amps and although the result is good I'm always much happier with the preamp in the chain. This may simply be a matter of my preference for the sonic signature of my preamp.

For my second system, though, I will most likely go the route of a DAC with a well-executed volume control fed directly into an amplifier as I'm trying to keep the number of physical boxes in this system to a minimum. My overall preference for this application would be #3 above, but the "good" products in this category aren't as readily available to me as the DAC / Amp solution.

Right now I'm considering the Aesthetix Romulus feeding the Atlas amp or Levinson 532H or a Wadia 381 feeding the same. I'm also considering some of the Sim Audio products, but have no first-hand experience with any of them and no dealer.
 

dallasjustice

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Does option 1 mean a digital volume control and option 2 mean an analog volume control? I guess I'm confused by your question. You are just looking for some kind of academic discussion? Does your question have any real world application?

I can tell you what I do but that may not be best in someone else's setup. I dont pre-amp. I use a DAC with digital volume control inside the DAC's FPGA which regulates the output voltage like a pre-amp would. The output impedance of my DAC is around 4 ohms. The input impedance of my amp is very low; around 1500 ohms and max input voltage is 1.8v. The max output voltage on my DAC is 3.3v. The way the digital volume control is designed, I wouldn't lose any bits.
 

P.C.

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In my experience adding a separate, purely analog, line stage always results in an overall benefit. I've tried the Wadia components directly into the amps and although the result is good I'm always much happier with the preamp in the chain. This may simply be a matter of my preference for the sonic signature of my preamp.

For my second system, though, I will most likely go the route of a DAC with a well-executed volume control fed directly into an amplifier as I'm trying to keep the number of physical boxes in this system to a minimum. My overall preference for this application would be #3 above, but the "good" products in this category aren't as readily available to me as the DAC / Amp solution.
.

Hi AMP thanks for responding. But not sure I quite understood. Wouldn't going the active line stage with built in Dac and then to a power amp ( your preference ) be exactly the same box count (2 boxes) as the route of the Dac with built in volume into a power amp that you suggest you'll end up doing?
 

P.C.

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Does option 1 mean a digital volume control and option 2 mean an analog volume control? I guess I'm confused by your question. You are just looking for some kind of academic discussion? Does your question have any real world application?

Hello Dallasjusice.
option 1) often digital volume but could be analog ..AMR Digital Processor 777 Dac used an analog control. Option 2) a fully active line stage again could I suppose us either an analog or digital volume control.
Yes an academic discussion of sorts . But as both types of products exists ( again refer to first post for real world examples) I expect the choices must have been made in reality.
It looks like your answer was for option 1:the Dac with vol control option. Thanks for info.
 
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dallasjustice

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Hello Dallasjusice.
option 1) could use either a digital or analog volume control option 2) the fully active line stage again could I suppose us either an analog or digital volume control.
Yes an academic discussion of sorts . But as both types of products exists ( again refer to first post for real world examples) I expect the choices must have been made in reality.
It looks like your answer was for option 1:the Dac with vol control option. Thanks for info.

There are so many ways to implement the so called DAC with volume control, I don't feel comfortable being put in that category. That's why a real world example is the only way to really get a feel for what people prefer. I've seen some DACs that uses potted resistors in the analogue output stage to control volume. I've seen DACs control volume on a budget DAC chip processed at 24 bits. There's no categorical answer. If digital volume and output stage are done right, it wouldn't make any sense to add an unnecessary gain stage, IMO.
 

AMP

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Hi AMP thanks for responding. But not sure I quite understood. Wouldn't going the active line stage with built in Dac and then to a power amp ( your preference ) be exactly the same box count (2 boxes) as the route of the Dac with built in volume into a power amp that you suggest you'll end up doing?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. My overall preference is to separate the DAC, preamp, and power amp into three separate components and this is what I have in my main system. For the second system I'm trying to keep the box count down so while a line stage with an integrated DAC would work I'd still end up with a third box (transport). The options I'm looking at are players that have digital inputs as well as volume controls.

To the overall question, though, I haven't encountered any line stages with DAC capabilities which excite me.
 

puroagave

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you need to consider the sensitivty of your speakers and the overall gain of your amp. with my current speakers i havent had any success driving amps directly from the DAC. they have a sensitivity of 83.5 db. ive used amps with 26 to 38 db of gain with a 2v input. ive tried four DACs with either a digital volume or analog volume control (more like faders, actually) driving the amp directly. the problem you'll encounter is the differing range of recording levels of your favorite music, some have the gain to drive the dac's analog outputs to 2v (or 3v, or whatever) but many are way under, some waaay under.

what you end up with is not enough volume, and the adjustment range is rather coarse at best. The digital volume controls in the berkely and wadia ive had in my system limited the usable volume range serverely and with some recordings, you could have the volume wide open and it was still insufficent for driving the amp at more than a third of its power capabilty.

the same caveats we saw with passive preamps apply here, one size does not fit all and an active linestage is necessary in a lot of cases.
 

P.C.

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There are so many ways to implement the so called DAC with volume control, I don't feel comfortable being put in that category. That's why a real world example is the only way to really get a feel for what people prefer. I've seen some DACs that uses potted resistors in the analogue output stage to control volume. I've seen DACs control volume on a budget DAC chip processed at 24 bits. There's no categorical answer. If digital volume and output stage are done right, it wouldn't make any sense to add an unnecessary gain stage, IMO.

However from my readings of many forum posts ( AMPs post #10 is just one example) there are many/more people who either have own or have listened to dacs (or single box cd players) with supposibly the best built in volume controls around Weiss, Wadia, DCS etc who still.. prefered the digital performance when using a separate very high end/quality active linestage/preamp.

So now with this newer breed of dedicated active line stages suddenly appearing with built in Dacs (perreaux audiant dp32 is for example a new example of this).
I though it a worthwhile subject to discuss.
 
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P.C.

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Sorry, I wasn't clear. My overall preference is to separate the DAC, preamp, and power amp into three separate components and this is what I have in my main system. For the second system I'm trying to keep the box count down so while a line stage with an integrated DAC would work I'd still end up with a third box (transport). The options I'm looking at are players that have digital inputs as well as volume controls.

To the overall question, though, I haven't encountered any line stages with DAC capabilities which excite me.

Thanks AMP , The Aesthetix Romulus looks real nice! and I'm a Wadia 381 owner! I'm presently (same as what your looking for) a two box system owner.(Wadia/vol into power amp)
But am contemplating a future 3 box system. A cd transport ( yes strange as it seems I'm not interested in streaming!) a dac/vol unit and power amp.
Or CD transport, preamp/with dac and power amp.
Noted your comment re not haven't encountered any line stages with dac what have yet excited you yet.
It seems to be a newish type product. But it will be interesting to see if the idea gains any ground. Puroagave's post #16 shows how it could be the better option in many cases.
edit: and also after seeing Bruce B new post #19 below!
 
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Bruce B

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I don't think I've heard a DAC in my system that DIDN'T benefit from a pre-amp.
 

AMP

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Noted your comment re not haven't encountered any line stages with dac what have yet excited you yet.
It seems to be a newish type product. But it will be interesting to see if the idea gains any ground. Puroagave's post #16 shows how it could be the better option in many cases.
edit: and also after seeing Bruce B new post #19 below!

I think that the DAC / pre could be a very good option, but I don't see many companies out there doing it right. All of the internal isolation (both physical and within the power supply) makes the final product very complex. Taking it a step further and looking to the logical extension of one wanting the line stage functions for phono and the problem gets bigger and uglier. Trying to get the gain needed to bring an MC phono cartridge up to line level in the same box as a DAC presents quite a challenge.

I think that we'll continue to see some convergence here as the industry sends up more test balloons, but in the long run I wonder whether or not we'll ever see an integrated product that doesn't have some drawbacks.
 

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