European Trip

Bill Hart · Oct 20, 2012

John72953 said:
Oh, I can appreciate that, and also the last sentence. There surely is much agreement that for a culinary vacation France, Italy and I would add Greece as well, these countries top the list. I've not been to Greece myself, but I have been to Italy once and France on several occasions. Paris is beautiful and there is so much to see and do, as long as you can put up with the arrogance of serving staff. Customer service is not a strong suit of Parisians. Go outside Paris and hit the trail in your rented care to Lyons, Dijon or the Atlantic Coast and you'll find a great people, beautiful little cafes, brasseries, desert shops, etc.

Agreed re France viz Paris and countryside attitude. But, I have perfected Gallic disdain. And having lived in metro NY for 31 years, I can give as good as they can. Lyon has crazy good food. But that's sorta the point re both France and Italy, you can be in the middle of nowhere, and find a killer meal off the grid.

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 20, 2012

whart said:
Actually, with all due respect to the Greeks, the food is generally pretty lousy. You can find some pretty good tavernas here and there, and some serious fish, but living on bad paste and dry pita is pretty common. Sicily however is a garden of earthy and earthly delights, and if you are into ruins, it is great. The peeps are wonderful, it's easy to drive there on the B roads. And it's pretty cheap, relatively speaking.

Like I said, I've not been to Greece, but I have had the pleasure of having dined many times at one of my Greek friends' homes and the food was outstanding. Lots of fresh fish, which I'm particularly fond of. Perhaps it's different in the home country....don't know.

Bill Hart · Oct 20, 2012

edorr said:
I used to work in Yorkshire. The only good food you can get there is Indian. It is a pretty dreary place - cradle of the industrial revolutions. Textile mills. End up in Yorkshire on your first trip to Europe would be like visiting the US for the first time and giving NYC a miss and visiting the GM ruins in Flint, MI.

Funny.

Bill Hart · Oct 20, 2012

John72953 said:
Like I said, I've not been to Greece, but I have had the pleasure of having dined many times at one of my Greek friends' homes and the food was outstanding. Lots of fresh fish, which I'm particularly fond of. Perhaps it's different in the home country....don't know.

I think home cooking is different. We found an old taverna on the plaka in Athens that looked like nothing had changed since WWII. The roof was made out of corrrugated metal sheets, and some had been lifted to let the sun in; there was an old victrola with a big horn, and vines growing all over. There was an old man that popped out, and said, 'come back during the night-time.' We went. It was lunacy. First, the old man, who owned the place, was drunk, and didn't do much but socialize. His friends actually went back and forth to the kitchen to serve and get food. We had an amazing meal, listened to scratchy old 78's or whatever they were, and left late- they were dancing and carrying on, i'm sure, well after we left. Very warm, lovely thing.

edorr · Oct 20, 2012

John72953 said:
With respect....it is obvious you have a bias and would like the rest of us to believe that only your choices matter. There is much, much more to Europe than Italy and France Sir!

John, you can have a wonderful trip to any number of countries in Europe besides France and Italy. And there are hidden treasures evereywhere. Greek Islands, Dubrovnik, Istanbul, Portugal, Baltics and the list goes on. However, the gentlemen starting this post asked for advice for a first time trip, and mentioned a preference for France an Italy himself. Based on my personal experiece (I have visited every single country in Europe except for Andorra and a few Eastern Europen places like Romenia), I believe he is on the right track, and I am suggested some iteneraries to get the most out of a trip to those places.

My personal bias has nothing to do with this, because my personal preference would be Andalucia or even Marroco. However, I would not recommend that for a first time trip.

edorr · Oct 20, 2012

John72953 said:
Like I said, I've not been to Greece, but I have had the pleasure of having dined many times at one of my Greek friends' homes and the food was outstanding. Lots of fresh fish, which I'm particularly fond of. Perhaps it's different in the home country....don't know.

John, don't tell you friend, but although Island hopping is a delight, the problem with Athens is service is the lousiest of any place I have ever been, and makes Paris seem like Disneyland. Most strikingly, in most places when you point out to the taxi driver or server he is trying to rip to off, they become at least mildly apologetic. In Athens you will be met with disdain, and risk get scolded for having the audacity to breach the subject. This was a while ago, but I cannot imagine things have gotten any better under the economic circumstances the place is in. Of course, this was just my experience and Whart had this wonderful exprience with the old guy and may have a very different image of Athens. This randomness is part of the beauty of travel.

Bill Hart · Oct 20, 2012

edorr said:
John, you can have a wonderful trip to any number of countries in Europe besides France and Italy. And there are hidden treasures evereywhere. Greek Islands, Dubrovnik, Istanbul, Portugal, Baltics and the list goes on. However, the gentlemen starting this post asked for advice for a first time trip, and mentioned a preference for France an Italy himself. Based on my personal experiece (I have visited every single country in Europe except for Andorra and a few Eastern Europen places like Romenia), I believe he is on the right track, and I am suggested some iteneraries to get the most out of a trip to those places.

My personal bias has nothing to do with this, because my personal preference would be Andalucia or even Marroco. However, I would not recommend that for a first time trip.

Yep, including the Transylvania tour.....

Bill Hart · Oct 20, 2012

edorr said:
John, don't tell you friend, but although Island hopping is a delight, the problem with Athens is service is the lousiest of any place I have ever been, and makes Paris seem like Disneyland. Most strikingly, in most places when you point out to the taxi driver or server he is trying to rip to off, they become at least mildly apologetic. In Athens you will be met with disdain, and risk get scolded for having the audacity to breach the subject. This was a while ago, but I cannot imagine things have gotten any better under the economic circumstances the place is in. Of course, this was just my experience and Whart had this wonderful exprience with the old guy and may have a very different image of Athens. This randomness is part of the beauty of travel.

Not a service friendly economy. We needed to get some plane tickets while in Athens to fly down to Santorini. We were staying at the big old fancy hotel in Athens, with full service, concierge, etc. We learned that you can't have the concierge handle it; in fact, we had to personally go to the airline office. It was filled with people behind a counter smoking cigarettes, ignoring the ringing phones, and generally ignoring the folks in line. At that time (mid-90's), we learned that people paid their bills by going to the local offices, (e.g. for electric, gas, phone, whatever, and stood in line to pay bills). Crazy!

Also the air pollution in Athens was some of the worst I have ever experienced.

edorr · Oct 20, 2012

whart said:
Yep, including the Transylvania tour.....

Get to Meet Dracula

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 20, 2012

Anyone been to Prague? It's on my bucket list!

Bill Hart · Oct 20, 2012

John72953 said:
Anyone been to Prague? It's on my bucket list!

There are a lot of places I haven't been and that's one of them that is also on my list. I would add: Instanbul and Berlin to my list. I'd love to go to Egypt, but not now. On my 'bucket list' is seeing Mt. Everest in relatively close proximity. And, driving the 'Ring.

edorr · Oct 20, 2012

John72953 said:
Anyone been to Prague? It's on my bucket list!

Yes, wonderful city and good candidate for a second trip. But i slightly prefer Budapest. You can do both on a single trip of course.

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 20, 2012

edorr said:
Yes, wonderful city and good candidate for a second trip. But i slightly prefer Budapest. You can do both on a single trip of course.

Gotta love that about Europe.....so much to see and never really too far.

I sometimes miss living there because of it.

Bill Hart · Oct 20, 2012

John72953 said:
Gotta love that about Europe.....so much to see and never really too far.

I sometimes miss living there because of it.

And the train service is of a different order, at least in some parts of Western Europe, compared to the States.

puroagave · Oct 20, 2012

edorr said:
Gentlemen, with all due respect, for a first time trip, places like Wales and England cannot hold a candle to the French and Italian trips suggested. For starters, you stand a fair chance of getting rained out and you will eat crappy food most of the time. Unless you have a single malt fetish and want to see the producers up north, I would avoid the place. After Italy and France the third destination that is competitive is Andalusia. Pick up a rental car, drive from Seville to Granada, Cordoba. See the Alhambra, live flamenco shows, food and wine, tapas. Dolce far niente. Irresistible.

whart said:
And then there's the food. Did you say that?

if you're talking Spain, dont forget san sebastian for culture and especially food. they have quite a few michelin starred restuarants and they're representin' the new hot (haute?) cuisine coming out of Europe.

edorr · Oct 20, 2012

puroagave said:
if you're talking Spain, dont forget san sebastian for culture and especially food. they have quite a few michelin starred restuarants and they're representin' the new hot (haute?) cuisine coming out of Europe.

Only way to botch a trip to Spain is ending up in one of the resort towns like Benidorm or Torremolinos (Cancun is cheaper and closer). Also best to avoid Madrid in July / August because of heat. Otherwise, you cannot go wrong. If only they dropped out of the Euro and reverted to Pesatas it would be a screaming bargain to boot.

jazdoc · Oct 20, 2012

Dimfer said:
any recommendation/suggestion for a first time European trip?

my wife want to visit Italy..

I want to visit Germany (drive Autobahn maybe?) and France

are guided/structured tours a good idea?

what's the best time of the year?

Possibly me, wife and 2 daughters (25 been to Paris/London twice, 18)

we are all in good physical shape, but are laid back vacationers - not the backpacking type

a friend of mine did France - booked everything individually himself, rented a car and drove the scenic spots outside the city.. I want to do the same, in Italy.

Your wife wants to visit Italy...be smart and visit Italy!

Definitely take a week in Rome. We like staying near the Spanish Steps.
You don't have to go to the 5 star restaurants; grease the concierge the first night and you are likely to end up at great, inexpensive restaurants.
Do a nighttime walking tour the evening you arrive -- great way to get acquainted with the city and helps with jet lag.
Pay up for a private Vatican tour.
Take your wife and daughter shopping along Via Condotti
Walk to Santa Maria del Popolo which has two masterworks by Caravaggio and the famous Chigi Chapel
Be sure to make reservations ahead of time for the Villa Borghese...and be on time!
It's cliche, but visit the Trevi fountain - preferably at night. The Sant' Andrea al Quirinale is nearby ("the pearl of Baroque")

Bill Hart · Oct 20, 2012

jazdoc said:
Your wife wants to visit Italy...be smart and visit Italy!

Definitely take a week in Rome. We like staying near the Spanish Steps.

The Hassler fills that bill.

jazdoc · Oct 20, 2012

We stayed at the Hassler for our 20th anniversary trip. Worth every penny.

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 20, 2012

If you're going to Paris, Rome or any other major city do book a room, especially if you have a particular hotel in mind. Other than that....wing it. It's great fun not knowing where you're going to spend the night as your're driving countryside. We were in Germany as I wanted to visit a place called Trier, which has some ruins from the Roman Empire and came upon this little place that didn't look like much from the front, but we were tired and decided to settle in. Lo and behold we go into the courtyard and there was this beautiful fountain and an open pit where they cooked all of their meats. I can smell the flavours to this day. They had chickens rotating on a spit, sausages of all types and cooked to order steaks, pork chops, etc. We decided to go for the chicken with roast potatoes, a nice bottle of wine and were seated next to an Australian couple. It was a great evening and we had many more that trip.

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