European Trip

Bill Hart · Oct 19, 2012

edorr said:
Italy would be a close second favorite recommended destination. You can get a cheap flight into Milan (get the hell out - not much to see except for the Duomo). Take a train from Milan to Venice (excellent train), spend a few days there. Then pick up a rental car and work your way down to Florence (second most beautiful city in Europe after Paris IMO). Go a bit furted south into Tuscany then hit the coastline (don't mis Pisa on the way there). You then work your way up to Genoa (much underrated - gorgeous city), stop by Cinque Terre on the way, and also swing by Portofino of course. From Genoa is is s straight 4 hour shot back to Milan - drop off the car at the airport and head back. If you have a day to spare, you can see Lago Maggiore (1 hour north of Milan). Marvelous trip. Bit tight for two weeks. You can shorten it by cutting out Tuscany and head straight from Florence to Pisa and the coast. Not recommended in high season, because the coastal roads are too congested. This itenerary would arguably be a more unique experience than France but a bit more elaborate and adventurous. I also would never want to miss Paris on a first trip to Europe.

Spot on again, Edorr. There is a 'moderne' hotel in Genoa, set back in park-like grounds; everything is styled like something from the 30's bauhaus meets 50's jetsons. It was a strange, wonderful little spot. The drive along the Italian Riveria was a little harrowing. Portofino is, as you say, gorgeous. Did you fail to mention Sam Gimimgnano? There's that wonderful restaurant in the hotel, forget the name, and the town itself is worth a visit.

PS I just did a quick search and couldn't find the Genoa hotel i mentioned, but then i remembered another place outside of Florence that was even more wonderful; an old villa, with orange groves, a pool, fresco'd ceilings in the rooms, a huge loggia on the second floor and a trompe'loi entrance gallery done in Imperial Egyptian style. Place was owned by a Countessa, who would hang out with her local friends, not fancy, more shabby-chic, not terribly far from the city but you'd need a car. We had a great time there too, years ago.
Best,

Bill Hart · Oct 19, 2012

tomelex said:
actually, if its your first of several european trips, i recommend Great Britain. You can speak the language, there is plenty of beauty, and you can get an idea of what travel is all about.

also, my type of travelling (in europe) is to go off season, (not too off season or a lot of stuff is closed), go to one place, make that a home base for say 5 days, and do say one trip every day or every other day thats an easy drive. That way you get to know the micro of the culture, the real feel of the place, you dont get worn out, and maybe even you will feell relaxed.

Italy, as one country, does have a lot to offer for natural beauty and archetecture.

There's actually a thing where you can rent a Morgan to do Wales, and parts of the countryside, either as part of a group (not hard driving) or singly. Driving there can be challenging. But otherwise, another great trip. I don't let language stand in the way, though. That's part of the fun of it, and makes it more exotic. And some of what's spoken in Great Britain isn't exactly American english anyway! I also agree about working from a base, but if you have the wanderlust, and know how to travel light, there is something to be said for being a bit of a gypsy, too.
Greece is great for that- island hopping- you can even use public ferries- but god knows what it's like these days- you could get stuck even in the best of times because of a strike. Given their economy, you might have to swim home!
There's also a lot of merit in the off season thing- i hate crowds, and I don't know about these days- since Europe's economy has gotten crushed too, but you are right Tom, generally, high season is to be avoided: pricier, harder to get good reservations, more crowded to see anything that is even remotely touristic, etc.

edorr · Oct 19, 2012

whart said:
There's actually a thing where you can rent a Morgan to do Wales, and parts of the countryside, either as part of a group (not hard driving) or singly. Driving there can be challenging. But otherwise, another great trip. I don't let language stand in the way, though. That's part of the fun of it, and makes it more exotic. And some of what's spoken in Great Britain isn't exactly American english anyway! I also agree about working from a base, but if you have the wanderlust, and know how to travel light, there is something to be said for being a bit of a gypsy, too.
Greece is great for that- island hopping- you can even use public ferries- but god knows what it's like these days- you could get stuck even in the best of times because of a strike. Given their economy, you might have to swim home!
There's also a lot of merit in the off season thing- i hate crowds, and I don't know about these days- since Europe's economy has gotten crushed too, but you are right Tom, generally, high season is to be avoided: pricier, harder to get good reservations, more crowded to see anything that is even remotely touristic, etc.

Gentlemen, with all due respect, for a first time trip, places like Wales and England cannot hold a candle to the French and Italian trips suggested. For starters, you stand a fair chance of getting rained out and you will eat crappy food most of the time. Unless you have a single malt fetish and want to see the producers up north, I would avoid the place. After Italy and France the third destination that is competitive is Andalusia. Pick up a rental car, drive from Seville to Granada, Cordoba. See the Alhambra, live flamenco shows, food and wine, tapas. Dolce far niente. Irresistible.

Bill Hart · Oct 20, 2012

edorr said:
Gentlemen, with all due respect, for a first time trip, places like Wales and England cannot hold a candle to the French and Italian trips suggested. For starters, you stand a fair chance of getting rained out and you will eat crappy food most of the time. Unless you have a single malt fetish and want to see the producers up north, I would avoid the place. After Italy and France the third destination that is competitive is Andalusia. Pick up a rental car, drive from Seville to Granada, Cordoba. See the Alhambra, live flamenco shows, food and wine, tapas. Dolce far niente. Irresistible.

And then there's the food. Did you say that?

edorr · Oct 20, 2012

whart said:
And then there's the food. Did you say that?

I did. The only food better in Britain than in Italy and France is the beer, which is probably why it appears to be the main source of the caloric intake of the islanders; they have it for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Wahsing down fish and chips with a pint of Guiness in a pub is definitely a great cultural experience, but after two weeks it gets old.... You can never get enough of Petit pain a chocalat with a grande creme for breakfast on the other hand.

Bill Hart · Oct 20, 2012

edorr said:
I did. The only food better in Britain than in Italy and France is the beer, which is probably why it appears to be the main source of the caloric intake of the islanders; they have it for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Wahsing down fish and chips with a pint of Guiness in a pub is definitely a great cultural experience, but after two weeks it gets old.... You can never get enough of Petit pain a chocalat with a grande creme for breakfast on the other hand.

London has gotten much, much better, foodwise.

edorr · Oct 20, 2012

whart said:
London has gotten much, much better, foodwise.

You can get fantastic food in London. But when you head out into the countryside you're on your own. In France and Italy there is good food everywhere.

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 20, 2012

It's not just about the food. The history of the British Isles is second to none, and it takes a backseat to no-one.

Raffles · Oct 20, 2012

whart said:
London has gotten much, much better, foodwise.

We even have Mc Donalds now.

Raffles · Oct 20, 2012

They do have good food outside London, though. Perhaps your UK trip could be like this, going from one rather nice country hotel to the next (in Yorkshire in this case):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxq-I_e_KXg

Bill Hart · Oct 20, 2012

I'll let Edorr speak for himself, no doubt you can find good food throughout the British isles, and yes, there are all kinds of places, from boutique hotels to young and up and coming chefs. I guess the difference is, the cuisine cultures of France and Italy make it an attraction unto itself. As Puro pointed out earlier, part of the magic of going to France (and Italy, I'll add) is the food. Not sure you'd make the same claim about Britain (with the exceptions noted above).

Bill Hart · Oct 20, 2012

John72953 said:
It's not just about the food. The history of the British Isles is second to none, and it takes a backseat to no-one.

John, for some of us, it is as much about the food as everything else.

And trust me, you can eat horribly in France if you are so inclined. We were on a trip some years ago with some friends and he, in particular, wanted to go cheap, earthy. So, we were eating in a style my wife referred to as 'dungeon' dining. There was finally a rebellion. And we grabbed the first reservation we could at Joel Rubuchon's (when he only had a restaurant in Paris). Our friend's wife was overjoyed. He wasn't, particularly after he got the bill.

Bill Hart · Oct 20, 2012

Raffles said:
We even have Mc Donalds now.

Man, i remember Wimpy's or whatever that place was called. It was so bad. I was there as a student in 1980 and obviously on a budget. I stuck largely to indian food, chinese, the occasional cheap italian restaurant. Today, I think you can get far better chinese food in London than you can in NYC. Ditto on Indian food. We had some killer meals last time I was there.

edorr · Oct 20, 2012

John72953 said:
It's not just about the food. The history of the British Isles is second to none, and it takes a backseat to no-one.

The choice is between drinking big mugs of watery coffee on a rainy day on your way to another grey medieval castle, and sipping cappucino on an Italian piazza on a sunny day marveling at the gorgeous architecture and colorful buildings in Italy town ....

edorr · Oct 20, 2012

Raffles said:
They do have good food outside London, though. Perhaps your UK trip could be like this, going from one rather nice country hotel to the next (in Yorkshire in this case):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxq-I_e_KXg

I used to work in Yorkshire. The only good food you can get there is Indian. It is a pretty dreary place - cradle of the industrial revolutions. Textile mills. End up in Yorkshire on your first trip to Europe would be like visiting the US for the first time and giving NYC a miss and visiting the GM ruins in Flint, MI.

edorr · Oct 20, 2012

whart said:
Man, i remember Wimpy's or whatever that place was called. It was so bad. I was there as a student in 1980 and obviously on a budget. I stuck largely to indian food, chinese, the occasional cheap italian restaurant. Today, I think you can get far better chinese food in London than you can in NYC. Ditto on Indian food. We had some killer meals last time I was there.

One of the best kept secrets foodwise in Europe is Belgium. Other than that not much of interest there though.

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 20, 2012

whart said:
John, for some of us, it is as much about the food as everything else. And trust me, you can eat horribly in France if you are so inclined. We were on a trip some years ago with some friends and he, in particular, wanted to go cheap, earthy. So, we were eating in a style my wife referred to as 'dungeon' dining. There was finally a rebellion. And we grabbed the first reservation we could at Joel Rubuchon's (when he only had a restaurant in Paris). Our friend's wife was overjoyed. He wasn't, particularly after he got the bill.

Oh, I can appreciate that, and also the last sentence. There surely is much agreement that for a culinary vacation France, Italy and I would add Greece as well, these countries top the list. I've not been to Greece myself, but I have been to Italy once and France on several occasions. Paris is beautiful and there is so much to see and do, as long as you can put up with the arrogance of serving staff. Customer service is not a strong suit of Parisians. Go outside Paris and hit the trail in your rented care to Lyons, Dijon or the Atlantic Coast and you'll find a great people, beautiful little cafes, brasseries, desert shops, etc.

Bill Hart · Oct 20, 2012

edorr said:
One of the best kept secrets foodwise in Europe is Belgium. Other than that not much of interest there though.

True re food. Brugues is nice. And less attitude than France, if that makes a difference.

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 20, 2012

edorr said:
The choice is between drinking big mugs of watery coffee on a rainy day on your way to another grey medieval castle, and sipping cappucino on an Italian piazza on a sunny day marveling at the gorgeous architecture and colorful buildings in Italy town ....

With respect....it is obvious you have a bias and would like the rest of us to believe that only your choices matter. There is much, much more to Europe than Italy and France Sir!

Bill Hart · Oct 20, 2012

John72953 said:
Oh, I can appreciate that, and also the last sentence. There surely is much agreement that for a culinary vacation France, Italy and I would add Greece as well, these countries top the list. I've not been to Greece myself, but I have been to Italy once and France on several occasions. Paris is beautiful and there is so much to see and do, as long as you can put up with the arrogance of serving staff. Customer service is not a strong suit of Parisians. Go outside Paris and hit the trail in your rented care to Lyons, Dijon or the Atlantic Coast and you'll find a great people, beautiful little cafes, brasseries, desert shops, etc.

Actually, with all due respect to the Greeks, the food is generally pretty lousy. You can find some pretty good tavernas here and there, and some serious fish, but living on bad paste and dry pita is pretty common. Sicily however is a garden of earthy and earthly delights, and if you are into ruins, it is great. The peeps are wonderful, it's easy to drive there on the B roads. And it's pretty cheap, relatively speaking.

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