New Spectral/MIT cables

ack

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Ack- with all due respect, you are comparing apples to oranges when you go between balanced and single ended interconects on Spectral components. There is at least the added circuitry to convert single ended to balanced in the preamp plus the different signal path in the amplifier. Don't forget that these signal paths within your pre/amp are not broken in.

Do you believe the added circuit only affects the bass? And Spectral would engineer something with such stark differences in the bass between balanced and single-ended? What does it say about their engineering capabilities? And no, the balanced circuits are fully broken in by previous experiments, and don't forget, all Spectral equipment comes already broken-in and calibrated, with few exceptions.
 
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FredTam

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Dear Edward and Ack,
Thanks for your input.
I had a very short conversation with Mr. Richard Fryer several months ago in New York, I asked specifically on the interconnect if I should do RCA or XLR, he told me to make things simple, use RCA. Use XLR only if I need to run very long interconnect. And my dealer also recommend me to do RCA. For me, I just want to have a system to enjoy music and not to worry too much about tweaking. So far, I like Spectral with Magico M5 and Spectral with almost all Wilson Audio speakers and that's why I bought Sophia 2 about 2 years ago. But I do have a question, if I am going to use pre-amp and power amp from Spectral, I need to use Spectral / MIT cables, I do not need to use Spectral / MIT cables between my phono, SACD player and DAC to pre-amp, right ? As I just do not want to let go my Crystal Standard cables.
 

1rsw

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Jul 21, 2010
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To offer a different perspective, I hear this quite different from ack. I've been using MIT products for a long long time and have spent way too much time exploring different cables with my Spectral gear. Looking specifically at the later MIT/Spectral vs the newer upper tier MIT I hear a significant difference and once I spent time with the upper tier MIT cables I could not go back to the MIT/Spectral. I did not have the Matrix 60, I had the Matrix 90 speaker cables and currently the SHD120. I did have the Matrix 50 ic's, currently MA-X. All of mine have been XLR which I chose due to the length of my ic runs. What I hear most is an openness, significantly better articulation ie the upper tier MIT cables are able to provide much better details throughout. I also hear significantly better focus of bass energy, again better articulation in the bass regions and better extension. Images feel as if they are placed in time/space more accurately, notes stop/start in a more lifelike manner. For me there is just no comparison.

Now I do struggle sometimes looking at the difference between the Matrix 50 and the MA-X ic's because they each have strengths and weakness. I guess in the end I wish that Spectral would offer a high end selection for those looking for the absolute best performance....not just what will work. I THINK the MA-X and SHD120 are close to optimal performance as is available but not sure. I am pretty sure the newer MIT stuff far outperforms their older including the MIT/Spectral. If I remember right those were somewhere around the AVt MA which were good cables, not great.
 

ack

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I have no reason to doubt you, as I have not brought the upper end cables in for a home audition - have only heard them at the dealer. The comparison herein is strictly about the Spectral/MIT cables. Having said that, here's what I have also said in the past:

I just read the HiFi+ review of the MA-X speaker cables in issue 79, where they are compared against the author's Magnum cables... among the accolades (which to me are really improvements over the serious deficiencies in his Magnum cables that other less expensive cables don't suffer from) the following caught my attention:

... adjustable articulation. The output end of each box carries a pair of rotary switches with five different positions. One is labelled 'Bass' the other 'Treble' and they permit the user to adjust the level of articulation in the lower or upper frequency ranges. The effect is like a subtle and well-executed tone control. Increased articulation in the treble brings high frequency information a little to the fore, decreased articulation in the bass makes the lower registers recede.
 

FredTam

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I do not have any experience with MIT cable either but I remember the audition I did several time in New York, with Spectral DMC30SS + DMA-360 or DMA-260 with both Sasha and Sophia 3, Spectral cable was used and I do like what I heard. While I was in Hong Kong early this year, the dealer over there was using DMC30SS with DMA-360 with Magico M5 with MIT Oracle MA-X cables, it was an eye opener but the price of cables is very disturbing and prohibitive. Any suggestion in between if I have extra money to upgrade the Spectral cables after getting DMC30SS and DMA-260 ?
 

ack

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If 1rsw has used the HD90 and likes it better than the original Spectral/MIT cables, then that would be it. $12K; plus interconnects. The prices are on MIT's site. These are the speaker cables the dealer uses the most, so there must be good reason?
 

1rsw

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Fred your comments regarding MIT's upper tier pricing is a sentiment I share. I've used words like obscene in the past referring to this issue. I always shop pretty hard when it comes to those items. MIT can often be found well below retail and even the used market's such as Audiogon are great spots to find them. If you are already working with a dealer then you may feel an obligation there so these suggestions are something to consider in the bigger picture.
 

FredTam

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Oct 17, 2012
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Thanks ack and 1rsw.
Not too sure about getting pre-owned cable, anyway I give myself a little bit time as the first thing will happen is getting Spectral DMC30SS to be used with ModWright KWA-100SE and then in another 6 months to get the DMA-260 plus the Spectral or MIT cable later together. My budget for cable will be somewhere around 12K but not more for sure.
 

edwardce

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Oct 7, 2010
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FredTam, you are correct that the source components connected to the Spectral preamp do not require MIT cabling.
 

ack

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So the Matrix HD60 speaker cables are in (much better spades, BTW)... Clearly, with the HD60/50 combo, the tonal balance is restored quite a bit to make it very enjoyable again, but still the new combo is not as powerful in the bottom end as the old. And when one cable restores the tonal balance of the other, that to me is a tone control. Cables should not add or subtract. On the other hand, the HD60/50 pair does appear to lift a very thin veil with just a tiny bit less smearing, which you can hear if you swap in and out quickly. It is evident with some instruments more than others, like cellos. I have played the same Sinfonia da Requiem dozens of times, back and forth, and it is true there is just a tiny bit less smearing which makes instruments more lifelike, and more importantly the soundstage a little more well defined and a tad deeper - that's because there is tighter focus on each instrument; I also noticed the cymbals are a bit sweeter. But you really have to listen intently to pick up these changes.

As a combo, the new cables work very well _together_ - so I would not upgrade one without the other. Overall, it is important that the quality of the old cables is largely maintained, with tiny improvements. I can see why 1rsw would want to seek more of it, by going up the ladder. Frankly, I hate to say this, but I would start at the next level, the HD90; and I still don't like the interconnects as I appear to like the speaker cables - I really hope there will be another set of ICs. I am continuing the audition through the weekend, but the price is too steep for such a small gain - a gain that's not universal either to these ears.
 
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nirodha

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So the Matrix HD60 speaker cables are in (much better spades, BTW)... Clearly, with the HD60/50 combo, the tonal balance is restored quite a bit to make it very enjoyable again, but still the new combo is not as powerful in the bottom end as the old. And when one cable restores the tonal balance of the other, that to me is a tone control. Cables should not add or subtract. On the other hand, the HD60/50 pair does appear to lift a very thin veil with just a tiny bit less smearing, which you can hear if you swap in and out quickly. It is evident with some instruments more than others, like cellos. I have played the same Sinfonia da Requiem dozens of times, back and forth, and it is true there is just a tiny bit less smearing which makes instruments more lifelike, and more importantly the soundstage a little more well defined and a tad deeper - that's because there is tighter focus on each instrument; I also noticed the cymbals are a bit sweeter. But you really have to listen intently to pick up these changes.

As a combo, the new cables work very well _together_ - so I would not upgrade one without the other. Overall, it is important that the quality of the old cables is largely maintained, with tiny improvements. I can see why 1rsw would want to seek more of it, by going up the ladder. Frankly, I hate to say this, but I would start at the next level, the HD90; and I still don't like the interconnects as I appear to like the speaker cables - I really hope there will be another set of ICs. I am continuing the audition through the weekend, but the price is too steep for such a small gain - a gain that's not universal either to these ears.

They might grow on you during the weekend Ack. But...if you have to really look for improvements it is not worth it. I went from the Spectral cables (770 ul 2) to the MIT MAX rev 2 last year and there was no "looking for improvement". The MAX blew the Spectrals out of the water. And that is how it should be. In ANY upgrade. Without talking money (I realise that a review on the MIT top cables without talking money is impossible...but try :p) Wim
 

ack

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They might grow on you during the weekend Ack. But...if you have to really look for improvements it is not worth it. I went from the Spectral cables (770 ul 2) to the MIT MAX rev 2 last year and there was no "looking for improvement". The MAX blew the Spectrals out of the water. And that is how it should be. In ANY upgrade. Without talking money (I realise that a review on the MIT top cables without talking money is impossible...but try :p) Wim

I am glad you are still reading my posts :D I think we are all indirectly making a common point: if you went from the 770II to the MA-X Rev 2 - at what? $40k???? - to clearly and unintently hear improvements, one really has to spend an obscene amount of money - $10k+ - to gain sizable performance over the "old" cables...
 

nirodha

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I am glad you are still reading my posts :D I think we are all indirectly making a common point: if you went from the 770II to the MA-X Rev 2 - at what? $40k???? - to clearly and unintently hear improvements, one really has to spend an obscene amount of money - $10k+ - to gain sizable performance over the "old" cables...

You still mentioned money! You failed the test :p;). Of course I am still reading your post haha. Why wouldn't I?
 

1rsw

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Jul 21, 2010
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Great stuff, ack. Thanks for taking the time and energy to report your findings here. I think there are many of us Spectral owners searching for the best cable fit.

I had similar thoughts about the bass, although again mine was with the HD90/50 combo. At first I would have even described the bass as lean on the newer Matrix but over time I noticed it was much more focused bass energy, tighter, snappier overall where the older Spectral cables came across thicker...almost muddy in comparison. But, I will also say as I discussed this with a friend who has made the same move as I (matrix 90/50 to MA-X/SHD 120) that I found the lower Matrix to also sound lean in comparison to the upper tier (let's call them car priced:) ) MIT....so maybe they are lean! I actually love the Matrix 50. In some ways they sound faster than the MA-X but they just cannot match the tonal expression, scale and imaging so ultimately I went with the MA-X.
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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I am glad you are still reading my posts :D I think we are all indirectly making a common point: if you went from the 770II to the MA-X Rev 2 - at what? $40k???? - to clearly and unintently hear improvements, one really has to spend an obscene amount of money - $10k+ - to gain sizable performance over the "old" cables...

If you can't afford it, don't listen :cool:

Problem is is that the Oracle is that good--esp. the phono cable.
 

ack

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If you can't afford it, don't listen :cool:

Problem is is that the Oracle is that good--esp. the phono cable.

The problem is that the Spectrals are so incredibly accurate that they deserve the best in everything around them. Truly museum pieces.
 

ack

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Interesting developments... the HD60 I was given had seemingly unscuffed, virgin spades. It looks like these are brand-new cables, which are currently breaking in. So much so, that they are now revealing stark differences between the interconnects (again, just by simply switching the amplifier input). Piano notes are exceptionally realistic, with much longer, realistic decay, startling attack and sparkle - the old cables seem to chop off the amplitude, especially in higher octaves; this is really impressive. There is clearly better microdynamics, timbres are eerily lifelike up and down the entire spectrum, and any lower-end leanness issues I hear are more than compensated by extreme accuracy; the bass is exceptionally well-defined, tight, controlled and accurately positioned within the soundstage. I have never heard the Rite of Spring rendered so precisely. Organ doesn't go as low as I am used to, but timbres even at those octaves are impressively realistic. Sublime, un-hifi rendition, and there is probably more of it as you climb the ladder.

I have always thought whatever limitations I was hearing in bass articulation, truth of timbre and soundstage vividness were attributed to the speakers - this is no longer the case. These cables are a major component upgrade - a conclusion that I am sure many others have already reached. However, this begs the following question: can one get the same results by prying open the old cables' network boxes and upgrading the components? I guess one worthy experiment may be to run non-MIT cables briefly...
 

nirodha

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Aug 11, 2010
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Interesting developments... the HD60 I was given had seemingly unscuffed, virgin spades. It looks like these are brand-new cables, which are currently breaking in. So much so, that they are now revealing stark differences between the interconnects (again, just by simply switching the amplifier input). Piano notes are exceptionally realistic, with much longer, realistic decay, startling attack and sparkle - the old cables seem to chop off the amplitude, especially in higher octaves; this is really impressive. There is clearly better microdynamics, timbres are eerily lifelike up and down the entire spectrum, and any lower-end leanness issues I hear are more than compensated by extreme accuracy; the bass is exceptionally well-defined, tight, controlled and accurately positioned within the soundstage. I have never heard the Rite of Spring rendered so precisely. Organ doesn't go as low as I am used to, but timbres even at those octaves are impressively realistic. Sublime, un-hifi rendition, and there is probably more of it as you climb the ladder.

I have always thought whatever limitations I was hearing in bass articulation, truth of timbre and soundstage vividness were attributed to the speakers - this is no longer the case. These cables are a major component upgrade - a conclusion that I am sure many others have already reached. However, this begs the following question: can one get the same results by prying open the old cables' network boxes and upgrading the components? I guess one worthy experiment may be to run non-MIT cables briefly...

This is Ack talking positively about MIT cables without mentioning $. :p Well done Ack and ENJOY:D
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,236
81
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New York City
Interesting developments... the HD60 I was given had seemingly unscuffed, virgin spades. It looks like these are brand-new cables, which are currently breaking in. So much so, that they are now revealing stark differences between the interconnects (again, just by simply switching the amplifier input). Piano notes are exceptionally realistic, with much longer, realistic decay, startling attack and sparkle - the old cables seem to chop off the amplitude, especially in higher octaves; this is really impressive. There is clearly better microdynamics, timbres are eerily lifelike up and down the entire spectrum, and any lower-end leanness issues I hear are more than compensated by extreme accuracy; the bass is exceptionally well-defined, tight, controlled and accurately positioned within the soundstage. I have never heard the Rite of Spring rendered so precisely. Organ doesn't go as low as I am used to, but timbres even at those octaves are impressively realistic. Sublime, un-hifi rendition, and there is probably more of it as you climb the ladder.

I have always thought whatever limitations I was hearing in bass articulation, truth of timbre and soundstage vividness were attributed to the speakers - this is no longer the case. These cables are a major component upgrade - a conclusion that I am sure many others have already reached. However, this begs the following question: can one get the same results by prying open the old cables' network boxes and upgrading the components? I guess one worthy experiment may be to run non-MIT cables briefly...

That's what I heard with the Oracle and Magnum a while back in my system. I haven't heard a cable with better low end reproduction than MIT (though these Cello strings may compete) and at the risk of being skewered by others here, is just as important as electricity and room acoustics. If you don't get the equipment right, how can you ever take advantage of the room?

My addendum is that you need to use both the MIT IC and speaker cables together. When I just ran the ICs, I noted a slight dynamic compression in the midrange compared to the cables the MIT replaced.

I have the same cables in for review and am going to give them a listen on the Cello amps in a week or so!
 

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