i saw the 3D 'Double Lumis' demo at Definitive Audio's theatre event earlier tonight.

Mike Lavigne

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a pair of SIM2 Grand Cinema Lumis C3X's stacked.

pretty cool.

there was a 3D motorsports demo clip from the Nurburgring in Germany and a skydiving group demo clip which were both quite wonderful. however i'm not sure 3D is worth the effort. i will keep my mind open for now until i see lots more of it.

there was also the 'world premier' of the new Wilson Sophia III......which did sound quite nice.

i also saw the SIM2 Mico 50 LED projector which did look pretty fine in terms of colors and detail. i'd like a bit more 'pop'. it was on approx 100" diag greyhawk screen.
 

Mike Lavigne

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what was the MSRP of that 3D Lumis Mike?

i did not ask that question but i suppose it would be in the neighborhood of 2 x $35k = $70k. i did ask the SIM2 rep about whether the 3D set-up could use ISCO III's and still do 3D and he said (in his best Italian accent) yes. he asked if i had a Lumis and i said no, but that i had a number of friends with them. he said there will be some sort of 'special' 3D upgrade for current Lumis and Grand Cinema 3CX owners.
 

MylesBAstor

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The one thing I find curious about home theater is the prices nowaday. Years ago, how many times did people criticize the cost of a high-end tables and ask how many concerts could you go to for that money? Funny don't hear that about video! is it just because movies are more of a "family" experience and audio is a guy thing?

So I'm going to ask the question :) How many movies could one go to for 70K?
 

Mike Lavigne

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The one thing I find curious about home theater is the prices nowaday. Years ago, how many times did people criticize the cost of a high-end tables and ask how many concerts could you go to for that money? Funny don't hear that about video! is it just because movies are more of a "family" experience and audio is a guy thing?

So I'm going to ask the question :) How many movies could one go to for 70K?

i do enjoy my (separate) home theater but take a more pragmatic approach there as opposed to my 'no-holds-bared' 2-channel approach. my 3 year old projector had a lower list price than my 2:35 lens, the ISCO III, and i don't have much desire to spend more to upgrade. i did replace my video processor with the Radiance recently because my other one crapped out. my HT speakers and subs are now 9 years old. i did purchase a demo set of nice Cinematech seating last year......now that was a cost effective upgrade as my wife loves those seats.

yes; the HT is a family thing. my son, daughter and son-in-law (and sometimes their friends) visit to watch movies and my wife enjoys watching when i'll watch a 'chick-flick' with her. not much interest in the family visting the barn.

i'm waiting for SIM2 Lumis level performance (in an LED) to get down to around $10k before i upgrade my JVC RS-1. i think that will take about another 2 years.
 

FrantzM

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The one thing I find curious about home theater is the prices nowaday. Years ago, how many times did people criticize the cost of a high-end tables and ask how many concerts could you go to for that money? Funny don't hear that about video! is it just because movies are more of a "family" experience and audio is a guy thing?

So I'm going to ask the question :) How many movies could one go to for 70K?

Myles

Don't go there ... In video Performance increase is in synch with price decrease ..Better performance for less price year in and out is the norm ... The level of performance the Lumis brings in its field would have cost a quarter of a million 10 years ago ( I am not exaggerating.. Quad Stack of a 25 K CRT PJ + Processor for about $125K such as the Faroudja Line Quadrupler, Matrix Switcher etc for another 100 K or most likely more ) ... It is now $35 K .. MSRP ... and yes .. Video pictures in the Home are routinely superior to what we see in the Theaters ...movies where the exit signs all by themselves ruin all the contrast ...
In High End Audio? The reverse, the complete opposite ... 10 years ago, 30 K amps were seen as the exception ... Right now EVERY manufacturer aims at >100 K speaker , >100 K amps and at least half that price for a preamp using circuitry that were designed half a century ago ... Several cables happily hover around $30K ..What we get are too often dubious claims that cannot be objectively and even subjectively validated ... So ... You do the math..

Frantz

P.S. Mike L posted this while I was writing my reply ...

i'm waiting for SIM2 Lumis level performance (in an LED) to get down to around $10k before i upgrade my JVC RS-1. i think that will take about another 2 years.
Can we expect this in Audio .. Wait for performance to increase toward a certain (low) price point ? For example I'll wait until Wico Audio comes up with a 10 K speaker with the performance of its Y-2?
 
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Mike Lavigne

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Myles

Don't go there ... In video Performance increase is in synch with price decrease ..Better performance for less price year in and out is the norm ... The level of performance the Lumis brings in its field would have cost a quarter of a million 10 years ago ( I am not exaggerating.. Quad Stack of a 25 K CRT PJ + Processor for about $125K such as the Faroudja Line Quadrupler, Matrix Switcher etc for another 100 K or most likely more ) ... It is now $35 K .. MSRP ... and yes .. Video pictures in the Home are routinely superior to what we see in the Theaters ...movies where the exit signs all by themselves ruin all the contrast ...
In High End Audio? The reverse, the complete opposite ... 10 years ago, 30 K amps were seen as the exception ... Right now EVERY manufacturer aims at >100 K speaker , >100 K amps and at least half that price for a preamp using circuitry that were designed half a century ago ... Several cables happily hover around $30K ..What we get are too often dubious claims that cannot be objectively and even subjectively validated ... So ... You do the math..

Frantz

P.S. Mike L posted this while I was writing my reply ...


Can we expect this in Audio .. Wait for performance to increase toward a certain (low) price point ? For example I'll wait until Wico Audio comes up with a 10 K speaker with the performance of its Y-2?

Frantz,

i think that things are not simple when speaking about performance for the dollar trends in home theatre or 2-channel music.

ultimately one's perspective on these issues relates to source software.

in home theatre it took progression to a 1080p source format that hollywood embraced for distribution before the delivery products could be developed to optimize them. we are only 4 years into that process.

Lps and tapes have been around for many years containing state-of-the-art information and mostly delivery systems at the state of the art have been around for 20-30 years which are still relevant at the highest levels of performance.

my Rockport is a 15 year old product which continues to equal or surpass today's best alternatives. my Studer is 30 years old and still is at the pinacle of performance. there are 10 year old speakers and amps which rival todays best. and it's not just at the highest price points where that happens in 2-channel. i have a Garrard 301 tt (50 years old) and a Technics (30 years old) that compete in performance at the highest levels.

in digital it's not quite the same; but honestly my Marantz SA-1 from 2000 would still hold it's own on SACD with any digital of today....the differences would be very difficult to hear for the typical listener.

in home theatre today's Blue Ray dics clearly humble any previous consumer format.

added note; in the 90's there were over $100k components too, maybe not as many as now but they were out there. i don't think they had any more or less relevance today as they had then. there were a few that actually delivered on the extra performace then as now. mostly they did not.
 
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MylesBAstor

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Myles

Don't go there ... In video Performance increase is in synch with price decrease ..Better performance for less price year in and out is the norm ... The level of performance the Lumis brings in its field would have cost a quarter of a million 10 years ago ( I am not exaggerating.. Quad Stack of a 25 K CRT PJ + Processor for about $125K such as the Faroudja Line Quadrupler, Matrix Switcher etc for another 100 K or most likely more ) ... It is now $35 K .. MSRP ... and yes .. Video pictures in the Home are routinely superior to what we see in the Theaters ...movies where the exit signs all by themselves ruin all the contrast ...
In High End Audio? The reverse, the complete opposite ... 10 years ago, 30 K amps were seen as the exception ... Right now EVERY manufacturer aims at >100 K speaker , >100 K amps and at least half that price for a preamp using circuitry that were designed half a century ago ... Several cables happily hover around $30K ..What we get are too often dubious claims that cannot be objectively and even subjectively validated ... So ... You do the math..

Frantz

P.S. Mike L posted this while I was writing my reply ...


Can we expect this in Audio .. Wait for performance to increase toward a certain (low) price point ? For example I'll wait until Wico Audio comes up with a 10 K speaker with the performance of its Y-2?

Oh Frantz lighten up :) You gotta admit it's funny! I don't really care about justifying the pricing :)
 

FrantzM

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Oh Frantz lighten up :) You gotta admit it's funny! I don't really care about justifying the pricing :)

Myles
:D ... touché

Mike

I actually think you have made my point ... The path taken by High End Audio is small increment of performance for Qunatum more money .. Back then it wasn't the case but now .. Convince me that one of our dear manufacturer would come up with superior product for less money ... when each iteration of the product cost more .. Your Rockport is a good example but I can guarantee you that its next iteration will cost twice what it sold for then .. rumors have been $150K .. I think $200K but it might be a psychological shock .. so $185K?
The top of the line speakers nowadays are inching toward $200K we are just waiting for an economic recovery to go past a quarter of a million for several manufacturer of speakers ? The top of the line in amps are trying to clog the 100 K point ... ?
The thing about HT is that the performance is both subjective AND objective. And it continuously cost less not so in Audio , not yet anyway

Frantz
 

Mike Lavigne

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The path taken by High End Audio is small increment of performance for Qunatum more money .. Back then it wasn't the case but now .. Convince me that one of our dear manufacturer would come up with superior product for less money ... when each iteration of the product cost more .. Your Rockport is a good example but I can guarantee you that its next iteration will cost twice what it sold for then .. rumors have been $150K .. I think $200K but it might be a psychological shock .. so $185K?

Frantz

i think that is true of any mature endevour. over time as optimal performance of any technology is approached it takes more assets to move the needle given technology limitations.

with digital video we are still in the 'low-hanging fruit' step in the maturation of the technology where big steps and efficiencies are gained. then there is potential break-thru's in technology capabilities which might affect performace too. but at the top of the food chain the very best projectors will always be spendy too.

btw; i for one, do not expect another Rockport tt. too much effort by Andy for not enough return. if he did it, it would just be to do it....it would not be a business decision. that is not to say it won't happen; but it's been 'next year' for 5 or 6 years now.
 

FrantzM

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Hi

I don't want to hang on the issue forever ... However spendy the best PJ might be and they are not that expensive, they still are clearly superior to their predecessor.. better their less expensive brethren might even match last year best, an example is the Lumis bettering in many aspects the HT5000 in SIM 2 .. To wit take a an RS-20 and compare it to the very first Runco DLP with the most expesnive Faroudja VP ... In-PJ video processing has gotten so good that stand-alone Video Processors are an endangered species ... I will go on your own grounds ( Not that I agree with that side of the Digital vs Analog argument) .. What progress have you seen in Audio and how much less expensive are they...??
High End Audio has evolved very little from the late 80's if at all ... Prices however are continuing their seemingly unstoppable ascension ...

Frantz
 

MylesBAstor

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What progress have you seen in Audio and how much less expensive are they...??
High End Audio has evolved very little from the late 80's if at all ... Prices however are continuing their seemingly unstoppable ascension ...

Frantz

I couldn't disagree more strongly with this statement!

Frantz, have you ever taken a highly touted components from the '80s and compared it to today's SOTA? Tell me your beloved Burmester isn't worlds better than what passed for SOTA solid-state amplifiers thirty years ago. Those '80s solid-state designs were virtually unlistenable (unless that was, they so colored the piece to make it sound dark-as some were known to do). Tube gear has progressed oh so much-especially at the frequency extremes and noise floor. There's no comparison when it comes to turntables, arms and cartridges. Speakers have evolved considerably too. Todays electrostats sound so much better than the early Acoustats, Sound Labs, KLHs, Dayton Wrights, etc. The new Maggies are worlds better than the original models marketed by ARC. For instance, it wasn't until the introduction of the ribbon tweeter that the Maggies had any real top end extension. The early Maggies as many speakers of that era also were excruciatingly bright.

Sorry but it's absolutely no contest. I remember comparing the highly touted Precision Fidelity preamplifier of yesteryear a couple of years ago to my then reference tube preamplifier -- and I couldn't believe how bad the '80s piece was. I couldn't believe it received the review it did. It was like listening underwater. There were no frequency extremes to speak of. (and not to denigrate those classical vintage designs of the '60s but in retrospect, they do have real significant shortcomings).

Take a gander at the old TAS-most of this gear did one or two things well but at the same time had some really significant issues elsewhere. Nowadays, we have to nitpick a lot more to find problems in the gear (relatively speaking).

I'd also aver that todays more affordable/entry level gear is worlds better than what existed even a decade ago--and in some ways probably rival what was considered SOTA back then in many ways.
 

FrantzM

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I couldn't disagree more strongly with this statement!

Frantz, have you ever taken a highly touted components from the '80s and compared it to today's SOTA? Tell me your beloved Burmester isn't worlds better than what passed for SOTA solid-state amplifiers thirty years ago. Those '80s solid-state designs were virtually unlistenable (unless that was, they so colored the piece to make it sound dark-as some were known to do). Tube gear has progressed oh so much-especially at the frequency extremes and noise floor. There's no comparison when it comes to turntables, arms and cartridges. Speakers have evolved considerably too. Todays electrostats sound so much better than the early Acoustats, Sound Labs, KLHs, Dayton Wrights, etc. The new Maggies are worlds better than the original models marketed by ARC. For instance, it wasn't until the introduction of the ribbon tweeter that the Maggies had any real top end extension. The early Maggies as many speakers of that era also were excruciatingly bright.

Sorry but it's absolutely no contest. I remember comparing the highly touted Precision Fidelity preamplifier of yesteryear a couple of years ago to my then reference tube preamplifier -- and I couldn't believe how bad the '80s piece was. I couldn't believe it received the review it did. It was like listening underwater. There were no frequency extremes to speak of. (and not to denigrate those classical vintage designs of the '60s but in retrospect, they do have real significant shortcomings).

Take a gander at the old TAS-most of this gear did one or two things well but at the same time had some really significant issues elsewhere. Nowadays, we have to nitpick a lot more to find problems in the gear (relatively speaking).

I'd also aver that todays more affordable/entry level gear is worlds better than what existed even a decade ago--and in some ways probably rival what was considered SOTA back then in many ways.

:eek::eek::eek:
Guilty as charged ...

A case of hyperbole .. I am an audiophile after all ... :eek:

You have a point as there has been some progress but nowehre as rapid as in video where today's best is obsolete within 6 months. I also maintain my position on High End Audio pricing

Frantz
 

MylesBAstor

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Could be worse. Buy a computer and it's obselete when you walk out the door :)
 

Mike Lavigne

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I also maintain my position on High End Audio pricing

Frantz

yes; there is an element of 'if you price it high enough they will buy it'....but i think there are also more solid high value products out there too.

a few of those products i am very familiar with IMHO;

Evolution Acoustics MM3's
Playback Designs MPS-5
Ortofon A90 MC cartridge
Allnic H-3000 phono stage

none of those products are in-expensive. but they can be favorably compared on performance to any product at any price and be competitive. i think that these products are more representative of today's high end than the 'crazy-high priced' stuff you refer to.
 

FrantzM

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yes; there is an element of 'if you price it high enough they will buy it'....but i think there are also more solid high value products out there too.

a few of those products i am very familiar with IMHO;

Evolution Acoustics MM3's
Playback Designs MPS-5
Ortofon A90 MC cartridge
Allnic H-3000 phono stage

none of those products are in-expensive. but they can be favorably compared on performance to any product at any price and be competitive. i think that these products are more representative of today's high end than the 'crazy-high priced' stuff you refer to.

Mike

Again I wouldn't disagree with this list .. these are however the exception rather than the rule..

i think that these products are more representative of today's high end than the 'crazy-high priced' stuff you refer to
I completely disagree with that statement and will not be alone.. It can easily be proven how gears have gotten more expensive in High End Audio compared to many other hobby and especially ... video ...

Frantz
 

Mike Lavigne

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Mike

Again I wouldn't disagree with this list .. these are however the exception rather than the rule..


I completely disagree with that statement and will not be alone.. It can easily be proven how gears have gotten more expensive in High End Audio compared to many other hobby and especially ... video ...

Frantz

Frantz,

the real world of the high end is different from the forum-speak perception seen on these and other pages. i interact with lots of audiophiles from a wide spectrom and the mega priced gear is quite the exception. think of it as advertising and 'halo' rendering for real world stuff.

you need to get out more.:D:D:D:D:D
 

FrantzM

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Indeed Mike
I will try to get out more ... :D .. but truely, it is difficult for me to accept your positionon High End prices ... facts and numbers speak for themselves ...We'll leave it at that ..
OT what's the MSRP on the MM3?

Frantz
 

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