Why don't speakers incorporate a subwoofer into their cabinet?

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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Anyone who has heard a system with a well integrated subwoofer knows how much "realness" it adds, even to non-bass heavy music tracks. So why don't speaker manufacturer's just add the sub into their cabinet, especially on these huge, tall speakers?
 

puroagave

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Sep 29, 2011
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Anyone who has heard a system with a well integrated subwoofer knows how much "realness" it adds, even to non-bass heavy music tracks. So why don't speaker manufacturer's just add the sub into their cabinet, especially on these huge, tall speakers?

many of the floor standing speaker systems with side-firing bass woofers are essentialy a 2-way or 3-way with sub (passive in the majority of cases).
 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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Hi

I more or less agree with puro.. The problems that remains IMO unresolved with those designs is the fact that the best position for the main is not necessarily the best for the low bass... All speakers with subwoofers in the same cabinet have that limitation, EQ can help but is not a panacea. A good way is to separate sub-bass from upper bass as is the case with a few speakers, four towers configuration The Genesis, Gryphon, Tidal Topf of the Line, NOLA TOp of The Line come to mind but also another speaker whose driver configuration I like immensely the MM7, even heard it nor any Evo Acoustics speaker but I like the fact that the main are full range (pretty unique, I don't know of any other speaker doing that) and the subs are... well ..subs independent of the main which allow placement for best bass more achievable .. Of course the same can be achieved by using subs with a full range speaker .. This one comes with its own made-for-its-purpose-and-included-in-the-price complement of serious subwoofing ...

To me, however, the ideal remains to use several subwoofers in the Geddes (my preferred) or Harman configurations. (similar but substantially different) Best bass and best way to deal with room modes IMO.
 

audioguy

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To me, however, the ideal remains to use several subwoofers in the Geddes (my preferred) or Harman configurations. (similar but substantially different) Best bass and best way to deal with room modes IMO.

I totally concur. And with today's DSP's (pick your poison), the effective and accurate integration of mains to subs is not particularly difficult.

I'm somewhat surprised that more main stream speaker companies don't offer products where the sub(s) is/are separate from the mains and provide the separate DSP "box" for proper integration as part of the overall solution.
 

amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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I'm somewhat surprised that more main stream speaker companies don't offer products where the sub(s) is/are separate from the mains and provide the separate DSP "box" for proper integration as part of the overall solution.
That's good thinking :). The problem is one of sales. I asked one of the major speaker designers why they don't make active speakers. He said he absolutely believes he can make a better speaker+amp combo that way but that the market demands separates so that is what they produce.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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I totally concur. And with today's DSP's (pick your poison), the effective and accurate integration of mains to subs is not particularly difficult.

I'm somewhat surprised that more main stream speaker companies don't offer products where the sub(s) is/are separate from the mains and provide the separate DSP "box" for proper integration as part of the overall solution.

the 2 channel marketplace (above say $10k) will never widely accept a DSP solution to bass integration. i know i won't. period.

we can argue all day about the merits, i'm speaking about the perception.

i agree with the perception.

of course i've lived with 2 speaker systems for the last 7 years (MM3 and VR9SE) that both use analog crossovers sucessfully to integrate powered subwoofers and am buying a third (MM7's); so why would i want to get DSP?

i can see it at specific price points where the benefits outweigh the costs. kinda like class d amps for full range. not much interest at higher price points for 2 channel. but at lower price points benefits outweigh the costs.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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Hi

I more or less agree with puro.. The problems that remains IMO unresolved with those designs is the fact that the best position for the main is not necessarily the best for the low bass... All speakers with subwoofers in the same cabinet have that limitation, EQ can help but is not a panacea. A good way is to separate sub-bass from upper bass as is the case with a few speakers, four towers configuration The Genesis, Gryphon, Tidal Topf of the Line, NOLA TOp of The Line come to mind but also another speaker whose driver configuration I like immensely the MM7, even heard it nor any Evo Acoustics speaker but I like the fact that the main are full range (pretty unique, I don't know of any other speaker doing that) and the subs are... well ..subs independent of the main which allow placement for best bass more achievable .. Of course the same can be achieved by using subs with a full range speaker .. This one comes with its own made-for-its-purpose-and-included-in-the-price complement of serious subwoofing ...

To me, however, the ideal remains to use several subwoofers in the Geddes (my preferred) or Harman configurations. (similar but substantially different) Best bass and best way to deal with room modes IMO.

The other problems are 1) the substantial demands of deep bass drawing power (control, clarity...) away from mids and highs 2) The ideal amplifier for that big woofer might not be agood match to the midrange driver that is carrying all the critical material in the sensitive hearing band. 3) the passive crossover, buggering the impedance curve in the midbass and taxing the capabilities of that single amplifier.

Of course all of the above, except for location placement of subs, could also be applied to the relationship between the midrange driver and the tweeter as well. Amir's major speaker designer said it best:

I asked one of the major speaker designers why they don't make active speakers. He said he absolutely believes he can make a better speaker+amp combo that way but that the market demands separates so that is what they produce.

YMMV, but I think the greatest potential lies in fully active mains that are not full range (so you have no deep bass that can't be located to suit the room), sized appropriately to the listening space and mated to the appropriate size and number of subwoofers for the listening space.

Sorry. That was far too good of an opening to just leave it there. :)

Tim
 

DonH50

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Jun 22, 2010
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One other point (may have been made already, if so my apologies): A sub can modulate the other speakers in a cabinet, through the air and through the cabinet material, and it is hard to isolate unless you are building with concrete. The isolation and bracing make for a much larger, heavier, and more expensive cabinent than using two boxes.
 

mojave

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Oct 29, 2010
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GR-Research has shown their Super V speakers at RMAF the past few years. These speakers have dual 12" servo-controlled open baffle subwoofers in each speaker. This year they are showing the new Super 7 speakers which still have subwoofers in each speaker. I think they would certainly be worth checking out.

In the second picture you can see the 280 watt blue tube monoblock that he has used at past shows, but there is also a battery in the background. I think he will be powering these with a new battery tube amp from Dodd Audio. Edit: The subs have their own amps.







I also recently heard the Soundfield Audio Monitor 1 which has a powered 8" long throw subwoofer driver in each speaker. It is an interesting design.
 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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I am not trying to push the Active speakers agenda here.. Low bass is Active in the MM3. I can bet they use DSP in their bass speakers .. You will not reach that low (<15 Hz) without some massaging of the response from a 15 inch in a (relatively small) cabinet ... It ain't going to happen .. There is DSP in there by some name... same with the VR-9 and I would like Gary to chime in with the 12 woofers in the G 1.2 column, .. there has to be some DSP in there too ...

If what you meant is DRC Digital Room Correction ...well it is as you said it a matter of perception, I would have preferred to say a matter of prejudice ... I remains that there are things that are simply impossible with analog.. For example with the MM7 Towers, if the bass towers are placed behind the mains, one can not be sure of perfect timing .. Only DRC can delay the main so that bass towers output and that of the mains reach your ears at the same time. It is also true that at those frequencies the brain can integrate such really slight and minute delays as insignificant .. It remains that the ideal would be to have the output of all speakers/drivers reaching the ears at the same time .. In a tower main/configuration only DRC can provide perfect time alignment of main and tower...
 
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mojave

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You are correct, Frantz. You mentioned the MM3, but the MM7 specifications say it has an active crossover for the bass and a maximum boost of 9 dB. Like you said, you can't reach low without massaging the response.

Mike Lavigne said:
the 2 channel marketplace (above say $10k) will never widely accept a DSP solution to bass integration. i know i won't. period.
If the MM7's have active crossovers, then Evolution Acoustics is using a DSP solution for bass integration with the MM7 speakers.
 

Soundminded

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Apr 26, 2012
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Anyone who has heard a system with a well integrated subwoofer knows how much "realness" it adds, even to non-bass heavy music tracks. So why don't speaker manufacturer's just add the sub into their cabinet, especially on these huge, tall speakers?

I think a better question is why is it that most (almost all) audiophiles don't incorporate what IMO is the one real fruit of Floyd Toole's research and use 4 subwoofers, one in each corner of a room? It works, it's not all that expensive by audiophile standards, and it solves a real problem but it seems nobody uses it. I think one subwoofer is the worst choice. If you're going to have subwoofers, a minimum of two should be the norm. Four seems ideal for most rooms.
 

audioguy

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I think a better question is why is it that most (almost all) audiophiles don't incorporate what IMO is the one real fruit of Floyd Toole's research and use 4 subwoofers, one in each corner of a room? It works, it's not all that expensive by audiophile standards, and it solves a real problem but it seems nobody uses it. I think one subwoofer is the worst choice. If you're going to have subwoofers, a minimum of two should be the norm. Four seems ideal for most rooms.

Partially agreed. One sub would seldom or never work, but I am familiar where two work equally as well as four - my room is a perfect example. Two provides (in my room) more than enough headroom (I have 4) and provides IDENTICAL FR. Part of the issue may be that for two to work, they would usually be required to be placed asymmetrically in the room and most of us in the two channel world are way too OCD to live with that (which, by the way, is why I have 4).

HT users (who happen to use their room for music as well) have been more acceptable of the multi-sub approach.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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many of the floor standing speaker systems with side-firing bass woofers are essentialy a 2-way or 3-way with sub (passive in the majority of cases).

Surely. I have experience with two such systems - the JmLab Grand Utopia Be and the Sonusfaber Aida's. Both have the possibility of driving the very large subwoofer speaker separately as they are bi and tri-wire systems respectively and are crossed at 55 Hz. We can easily convert them to "half actives" (it is not possible to disable the passive filter) with an equalizer and a separate amplifier.
 

still-one

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Anyone who has heard a system with a well integrated subwoofer knows how much "realness" it adds, even to non-bass heavy music tracks. So why don't speaker manufacturer's just add the sub into their cabinet, especially on these huge, tall speakers?

Depends how you define sub-woofer. Both the MBL 101'es and 111F's have sub-woofer built into the lower cabinet. On the 101's the large petal shaped driver you see on top in the bass driver. On the 111F's the bass driver is also in the upper cabinet but is a traditional driver. The lower cabinet is actually a sub-woofer.

Jim
 

JackD201

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Apr 20, 2010
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I think a better question is why is it that most (almost all) audiophiles don't incorporate what IMO is the one real fruit of Floyd Toole's research and use 4 subwoofers, one in each corner of a room? It works, it's not all that expensive by audiophile standards, and it solves a real problem but it seems nobody uses it. I think one subwoofer is the worst choice. If you're going to have subwoofers, a minimum of two should be the norm. Four seems ideal for most rooms.

I have built in subs in my speakers. I do think at least one more at the rear of the room would be beneficial even if the modal distribution of my room is rather high in frequency due to my selected dimension ratio. I might get around to it eventually.
 

mep

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My Def Tech BP7000SC speakers have a 14” sub driven by a built in 1800 watt amp in each speaker. They also have 2 passive 14” radiators in each cabinet. Looking at the speakers, you would never guess this type of subwoofer horsepower was built in to each of them. I also have a pair of the matching subs that also have a 14” sub driven by an 1800 watt amp and each sub also has two 14” passive radiators. That combines for a total of 24 drivers moving air in the room.
 

FrantzM

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mep

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I truly believe that if you are loading a pair of speakers into a decent size room that the secret to achieving a sense of realism is moving lots of air.
 

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