PONO - Neil Young starting HiRez digital ecosystem

AMP

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Neil Young tackles iTunes with Pono player, music service

updated 06:15 am EDT, Fri September 28, 2012


Neil Young continues crusade to improve digital music


Neil Young has made an appearance on the David Letterman show to promote a new music player and digital music service branded Pono. The new Pono players will support the playback of audio master files stored digitally in high-resolution, 192kHz/24-bit sound, reports Rolling Stone. The new Pono service, which will launch next year, has the backing of Warner Music Group with Meridian and Dolby involved as well.
Warner Music Group has already converted its libray to the high-resolution format in readiness for the launch. Young has received backing from Craig Kallman, the chairman and CEO of Atlantic Records, who helped to put together the Pono team. The pair has also been in talks with the other two key industry players in Sony Music and Universal Music Group. Flea, of the Red Hot Chilli Peppers is also a huge fan of the sound quality that Pono has achieved. "It's not like some vague thing that you need dogs' ears to hear. It's a drastic difference."

Young says that he has many times tried to talk to Apple about the quality of the music it delivers on iTunes, before deciding to take matters into his own hands. Apple uses the AAC (mp4) format, which is said to be ‘near CD-quality,’ although trained ears can tell the difference. Lossless formats like FLAC and ALAC improve the listening experience, providing more definition and clarity to the sound, although Apple does not support FLAC media playback. Its media players do, however, support WAV playback, which is often used as a format in media production and which sounds markedly better than AAC recordings.

However, for reasons likely to do with bandwidth and the efficient serving of music to customers, Apple has continued to serve up AAC in its iTunes Plus format, which is 256kbps AAC encodings. These, while an improvement from the original 128kbps AAC recordings Apple initially served customers, is still not on the same level as lossless encodes, or better still, the digitially uncompressed recordings as the Pono service promises to deliver. Taking things one step further, the Pono players will also include a digital to analog conversion technolgy to make the music sound even more organic.

The Pono music players will also support recordings already purchased from iTunes and other digital storefronts, however, users wanting to upgrade their recordings will have to repurchase their music through Pono when it launches. Young actually hopes that Pono will help to spur Apple “to be better and to improve quality at a faster pace.” [via The Verge]

Read more: http://www.ipodnn.com/articles/12/0...usade.to.improve.digital.music/#ixzz27nP5wcF8


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Just came across this and couldn't find any reference on WBF. I did a little bit of searching and there's very little information. What I've read, though, suggests that the actual file format will be proprietary and likely require to PONO player.

It would be nice if this ultimately forced Apple's hand to release a HiRez option for purchases through the iTunes store.

Also some more info at Rolling Stone: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/n...pono-digital-to-analog-music-service-20120927
 

opus111

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Warner Music Group has already converted its libray to the high-resolution format in readiness for the launch.

To my ears rather ominous sounding - could this be they're upconverting old redbook material to 192k/24 in order to deliver the same stuff again, but at a higher price?
 

JonFo

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They'd better be going back to the high-rez masters and using those to issue these new tracks.

Several labels have been caught taking existing red-book CD master (compression and all) and up-rezzing those. So it's easy to catch them.

I'll NOT pay extra for CD up-rezz, but WILL gladly pay for true HighRez masters (and better yet if remastered to HighRez).
 

edorr

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I hope they are not creating some new "pono" format that encodes 192/24 PCM losslessly. The last thing we need is a new format (of course "pono" to plac and wav converters will pop up rapidly). What is wrong with making more masters available in 192/24 flac, using existing infrastructure (HDtracks e.a.). If high rez content catches on more digital distributors will show up? Call me cynical, but it sounds a bit like a marketing ploy to create a "closed" ecosystem around "new" format that offers absolutely nothing new. Just give us the damn content! If you want to develop some new iPod like gadget that plays 192/24 Flacs be my guest, but please stay away from new formats.
 

JonFo

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What is wrong with making more masters available in 192/24 flac?

From a record company perspective, a lot. The main one being: no DRM

this is not so much about new hardware or formats, it is mainly about how to deliver HighRez and not lose control.

Frustrating to us consumers, that's for sure. I also would rather see FLAC used as the format.
 

Thomas.Dennehy

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Frustrating to us consumers, that's for sure. I also would rather see FLAC used as the format.

With storage being essentially free at this point (< US$0.02/GB) why are we still talking about compressed audio?

Cheers!
 

opus111

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Because compressed audio makes the price even lower than $0.02/GB. Compressed audio (let's be clear we're talking lossless compression here, not mp3) will only go out of fashion when storage truly is priced at zero - which I can't see ever happening myself.
 

Thomas.Dennehy

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Because compressed audio makes the price even lower than $0.02/GB. Compressed audio (let's be clear we're talking lossless compression here, not mp3) will only go out of fashion when storage truly is priced at zero - which I can't see ever happening myself.

Yes, we are talking lossless. For me, it's not the size of the end product, it's the size of the archived project files for my analog-to-digital transfers. That's what is occupying most of my disc space.

Cheers!
 

rblnr

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With storage being essentially free at this point (< US$0.02/GB) why are we still talking about compressed audio?

Cheers!

Issue isn't storage, it's streaming bandwidth at this point.

I hope they are not creating some new "pono" format that encodes 192/24 PCM losslessly. The last thing we need is a new format (of course "pono" to plac and wav converters will pop up rapidly). What is wrong with making more masters available in 192/24 flac, using existing infrastructure (HDtracks e.a.).

Completely agree. Why complicate it for the audience that's already built-in for this kind of service.
 

edorr

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From a record company perspective, a lot. The main one being: no DRM

this is not so much about new hardware or formats, it is mainly about how to deliver HighRez and not lose control.

Frustrating to us consumers, that's for sure. I also would rather see FLAC used as the format.

Good point. How come I did not think of that myself. I pay for my content, and it never occured to me some people don't. Nonetheless, if the PONO format would not work with existing 192/24 DACs this would be a dealbreaker. There has to be a way to manage DRM at the source (PONO player runing on Mac or PC), without making existing DAC hardware obsolete. Interesting to see how this will develop.
 

Thomas.Dennehy

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rblnr

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Nonetheless, if the PONO format would not work with existing 192/24 DACs this would be a dealbreaker.

This would be unfathomable -- Neil's too smart a guy for something this stupid.
 

edorr

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This would be unfathomable -- Neil's too smart a guy for something this stupid.

But how would you get unencrypted 192/24 PCM into a dac, without allowing users to capture that same datastream at full resolution? We've gone through this nightmare with HDMI, I hope there will be no high rez audio repeat.
 

AMP

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If this is indeed a mechanism by which to force Apple's hand in supplying higher quality content I simply can't see it being successful. Apple has a very tight lock on their ecosystem and are in a position to dictate what they will and will not provide. The vast majority of Apple's customers are enamored with the devices themselves and with the overall convenience of content purchase and delivery. For the vast majority, the quality of the delivered files is not even a consideration.

In order for a new service to compete it's going to have to offer similarly excellent devices along with absolute convenience in sourcing and delivering content. Although I personally care about details such as file type and DRM most consumers don't. Unless this product (the entire ecosystem) is widely compatible with the ways in which consumers already acquire and listen to music I can't see it being a commercial success.

Around here quality is #1, but for most people it's much farther down the list.
 

rblnr

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But how would you get unencrypted 192/24 PCM into a dac, without allowing users to capture that same datastream at full resolution? We've gone through this nightmare with HDMI, I hope there will be no high rez audio repeat.

Let's see. Maybe this is where Meridian comes in, inventors of the MLP (DVD-A) unpacking scheme.
 

FrantzM

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Hi

First don't get the name .. What does "PONO" stands for .. I find it too close to PORNO ...

Second what market segment are they targeting ? Do you really believe that most people would perceive the differences between 320 Kb/s mp3 and RBCD?

Third .. If the darn thing requires a third party anything be it a DAC, a plug-in or whatever they will alienate their best potential market...us.

Last, I venture these questions: How many who have posted in this thread have bought from HD Track the past three months? I know I haven't ... So now who's gonna buy Neil's PONO things? Do you think they will be better than what HD Tracks are currently issuing?
 

edorr

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Hi

First don't get the name .. What does "PONO" stands for .. I find it too close to PORNO ...

Second what market segment are they targeting ? Do you really believe that most people would perceive the differences between 320 Kb/s mp3 and RBCD?

Third .. If the darn thing requires a third party anything be it a DAC, a plug-in or whatever they will alienate their best potential market...us.

Last, I venture these questions: How many who have posted in this thread have bought from HD Track the past three months? I know I haven't ... So now who's gonna buy Neil's PONO things? Do you think they will be better than what HD Tracks are currently issuing?

It is not a matter of sound quality, but of catalogue size. PONO 192/24 will sound the same as 192/24 FLACs on HD tracks. If the thinking is labels are holding back high rez released because of concerns about copying, PONO DRM could bring them into the game.

I download some stuff from HDTracks occasionally, but I found myself reverting to listening to 44/16 content that I actually like on its artistic merits, rather than sound quality. In other words, in the absense of exactly the music in high rez that I would have bought on 44/16, to me high rez is a audiophile gimmick that wears off.

Case in point. I own Anita Baker's rapture album on CD. I quite like her but can't say I listen to her more than once a year, and if I do I listen to another album. So now Rapture comes out in high rez. A year ago I would have bought it. Right now, I ask myself, am I really going to let resolution dictate what I listen to? No. So I don't buy the album in high rez.
 

hvbias

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Hi
Last, I venture these questions: How many who have posted in this thread have bought from HD Track the past three months? I know I haven't ... So now who's gonna buy Neil's PONO things? Do you think they will be better than what HD Tracks are currently issuing?

I've made several purchases from HDTracks in the last few weeks. Mostly Blue Note 24/192 albums that sound fantastic (new transfers from analog master tapes)... almost as good as my 45 rpm vinyl remasters.

It does take a bit of research to sort out the up-converts from the native resolution files, but that information usually eventually surfaces.
 

FrantzM

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I've made several purchases from HDTracks in the last few weeks. Mostly Blue Note 24/192 albums that sound fantastic (new transfers from analog master tapes)... almost as good as my 45 rpm vinyl remasters.

It does take a bit of research to sort out the up-converts from the native resolution files, but that information usually eventually surfaces.

Deepak

Do you have your flame suit on? Some may burn you on an analog altar for such heresy!!! :D ..

Now you are tempting me.. Have you compared them to the regular 44.1 KHz issues?

Waiting for the others who have recently purchased from HD Tracks .. My point is that very few of us have converted any substantial portion of our music collection to Hi-Rez. I am, thus, having a hard time perceiving a substantial market for 24/192 issues when we, hardcore audiophiles don't buy what is currently available... unless they cost the same or so close to the regular 44.1 as to force us into the Hi-Rez..

Time will tell ... I am not optimistic
 

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