Theta decides to add HDMI 1.4 to Casablanca HD upgrade

Bulldogger

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What did I expect? Not to have to pay $10,000 for an "upgrade" that doesn't even include room correction of the level that I can find in an inexpensive processor. Unreasonable? Not to me!

If you expected room correction from Theta, it may have been unrealistic at any price. Room correction became a non-factor in my decision once I compared the processors that have it against the Casablanca. It sounds better than all the ones I have tried,Meridian 861,Lexicon MC12,etc. I used room treatments and EQ only for the sub. Most subs have that on board. What room correction can not do is address the sound quality of some of these surround processors. Room correction which is really bass correction, can not repair the "glorious" sound created by those 2.00 op-amps. You can add bass correction to the Casablanca but not much you can do about the build quality of most surround processors. Room correction? See Ethan Winer :).
 

audioguy

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And that's what makes the world go 'round. My room is purpose built and well treated. Room correction does only a little in the bass since i have 4 strategically placed subs but it makes all other 5 speakers with virtually identical frequency response and hence greatly improved envelopment.

In me experience in the many hundreds of rooms I installed room correction in another life, room correction greatly improved the listening experience.

As an FYI I use a separate two channel preamp for two channel --- which also includes room correction (TacT 2.2XP).

Also, i was able to compare my previous CB II without room correction to my current Onkyo with room correction and it was no contest. You are fortunate room correction isn't required in your room.

Enjoy your upgraded CBIii.
 

Bulldogger

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Also, i was able to compare my previous CB II without room correction to my current Onkyo with room correction and it was no contest. You are fortunate room correction isn't required in your room.

Enjoy your upgraded CBIii.
With the Casablanca, it is difficult to assess comparisons. For example edorr found the Theta stuff much better than Onkyo even using room correction. The dacs could account for the difference between your two impressions. I would say that's almost certain. He was using Xtreme dacs. If Theta could upgrade, the older dacs, I suspect they would get a lot of responses about poor sound quality compared to other processors. The Superior II dacs are also very good. If your experience is only with the older dacs, I understand. I could not own a Casablanca with the older cards. The sound quality is just not there. The Premium cards appear to be of high quality at a much more reasonable price. Never heard those however.
 

rblnr

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For lossy DD/DTS, the CBIII is clearly better than the Onkyo 9.8 after RC -- had them side-by-side for awhile. Should be for the price and there are obvious limits as to what RC can do.

Was recently looking at how RED has handled their many delays for the new Scarlet camera -- being upfront as they have has engendered tremendous loyalty. Not quite apples to apples as the pro vid cam market is different, but nonetheless...
 

Bulldogger

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Was recently looking at how RED has handled their many delays for the new Scarlet camera -- being upfront as they have has engendered tremendous loyalty. Not quite apples to apples as the pro vid cam market is different, but nonetheless...
Absolutely, how things should be handled.
 

audioguy

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The dacs could account for the difference between your two impressions.

Except my CBII had digital out for all channels and I was using external DAC's. I used the 4 piece dCS stack for the front channels, and other external dacs of very high quality for the other channels.

I KNOW that the electronics of the CB are way better than those in ONKYO. My CB retailed for $14,000 when new and my Onkyo was like $1600.

That is not the point. My point is that in my room and 95% of all of the rooms I visited during my time installing room correction solutions clearly demonstrated to me that most (not all) rooms get more benfit from well done room correction than most any other hardware change they can make.

Let me also restate that I was a HUGE Theta fan. I had their Laser Disk Player, many iterations of their DACs, the CB I then the CB II. For me, it is (a) incredibly crappy communications with their customer base (b) incredibly unacceptable delay after delay after delay in "product announcement" ; (c) an unnaceptble upgrade cost that would be delivering a product that FOR ME did not keep up with either my needs and desires nor the rest of the high end suuround processor market in providing some form of room correction. All of that said, I NEVER used any of the Casablanca components for two channel which was and is my priority listening. I used (and still do) and a preamp.

That you are OK with no room correction and may end up with a CB that supports HDMI, is great. I chose to go in another direction and will find a high end SSP that meets my needs.
 

LesAuber

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Jun 21, 2010
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Me I'll just wait and see. If all that Theta does is duct tape on a HDMI input and leave the rest of the CB as is I'll just continue on with the CB and SS until I find another SSP that does better. OTOH if the new CB with HD is as good as or better than it's competition then maybe I upgrade. Depends on how it works out. Right now the upgrade cost for me would exceed the cost of an Anthem D2v for instance and slot in at about the price of the Classe IIRC. Room correction isn't a deal breaker for me so long as the CB comes out sounding better than the competion.

And I quite agree with the thoughts on completely unsatisfactory, unacceptable, shoddy, crappy customer communication and relations. If we talked to our customers that way I shudder to think of the consequences.
 

Bulldogger

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Why I am keeping the Casablanca is that so far all of the other pre-pros are failing my "test." This the test: Input 16/44 into your new processor and tell me if it sounds better than when you had a Casablanca with the same signal. So far, Classe,Halcro, etc, have all flunked this test. Also, I have heard at least three reports from former Casablanca owners that the Casablanca beats the Classe on DD and it should. The build quality difference is substantial. When the Casablanca is capable of processing DD True HD and DTS MA and on a level playing field, I do not think it is going to be much of a contest.
 

Bulldogger

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Except my CBII had digital out for all channels and I was using external DAC's. I used the 4 piece dCS stack for the front channels, and other external dacs of very high quality for the other channels.
Then what you are really saying it that the Onkyo sounds better than dCS when used with the Casablanca as a source. Ok. We all have our personal preferences.
 

Bulldogger

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. My point is that in my room and 95% of all of the rooms I visited during my time installing room correction solutions clearly demonstrated to me that most (not all) rooms get more benfit from well done room correction than most any other hardware change they can make.

.

The reason that companies like Ayre,Audio Research, and Theta can easily stay in business is because most people feel they sound better than pre-pros that use room correction. Go to any high-end dealer that sells high-end two channel pre-amps and surround processors and tell him that you feel that two-channel pre-amps can not hope to match a surround processor on two channel because of the room correction. You may get laughed out of the store. Ayre imo, kills Tact. Imo Theta kills Onkyo as well. Charles Hansen of Ayre says it's the volume controls, cheap op-amps in the case of surround processors. Hey I do not know. I just know that I am not a wealthy guy and wanted to spend my money wisely. This meant going to extremes to audition all of the top brands comparing most in the same system against each other. When I auditioned the Meridian 861 for most of a day at one of my fraternity brother's homes, I asked before the audition how he felt the Meridian compared to his VTL 7.5 pre-amp. I got the," do you know ANYTHING about high-end audio" look before he smiled and said the VTL was much better than the Meridian with it using room correction. The Six Shooter was as well with an older Marantz SACD player as the source for both analog pre-amps. I suggest that anyone reading such debates try it for themselves. If you could not have the cheap op-amps and have room correction that would be GREAT. Best chance at that is likely the new Krell peice which is 30k. Supposedly it is better than the Casablanca in every way. Theta is just having too much trouble with just HDMI. Tackling room correction was just more for them to handle. That's what I was told. It is what it is. The room correction debate is just an endless sidetrack in the case of Theta. There are no plans to ever have it. I say buy the Krell if you need room correction or just want it just because :).
 
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rblnr

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. Also, I have heard at least three reports from former Casablanca owners that the Casablanca beats the Classe on DD and it should. The build quality difference is substantial

I've only had the Classe briefly and have used it primarily for the hirez codecs, but I don't think it's necessarily inferior to the Theta in lossy DD/DTS. Haven't used it enough for 2 ch enough to make a judgement on that, but it's certainly very good at least.

The thing about build quality as I gather you define it -- no op amps, volume control that isn't a resistor ladder, etc. -- is that I don't think one can make a judgement based on it. A guess at best, but it's all case-by-case, component-by-component -- and particularly as things like op amps improve, it's important to be pragmatic not dogmatic, i.e. not judge on such things.

BTW, I use a separate DAC through a ARC Ref 5 for 2 ch. -- this is less a comment on the Classe than on the constantly changing/frustrating nature of processors. Used to think doing everything in one box was the ideal, now see the concept as an albatross.
 

Bulldogger

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I've only had the Classe briefly and have used it primarily for the hirez codecs, but I don't think it's necessarily inferior to the Theta in lossy DD/DTS. Haven't used it enough for 2 ch enough to make a judgement on that, but it's certainly very good at least.

BTW, I use a separate DAC through a ARC Ref 5 for 2 ch. -- this is less a comment on the Classe than on the constantly changing/frustrating nature of processors. Used to think doing everything in one box was the ideal, now see the concept as an albatross.
I do not hear much difference between processors with the lossy formats. You really need higher resolution stuff to hear a difference. ARC REF 5 is SOOOOO tempting. I think that's a good combination of the ARC for music and the Classe for movies. The Ref 5 makes you forget all about the HDMI mess.
 

rblnr

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I had a funky setup of 1 Extreme, 1 Sup II and 1 Premium. So LCR, sub extreme, 1 x surrounds Sup II, 1 x surrounds Prem. Both the CBIII and Classe were noticeably better than the Onkyo 9.8 on lossy, but I agree with your contention that hirez stuff widens the gap (Classe vs. 9.8 anyway).

The Ref 5 makes you forget all about the HDMI mess.

YES

Am comparing some different DACs btw -- Bel Canto 3.5VB, Ayre QB-9, will report later.
 

rblnr

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Can u articulate the sonic differences between the 9.8 and the Classe?

In the short time I've used it what's surprised me most about the Classe SSP800 vs. the Onkyo 9.8 wasn't the obvious gain in SQ, it's the seeming improvement in steering. You'd think that would be in the processing realm though I'm not aware of anything Classe does there, so it could simply be a consequence of better SQ out of each speaker, better channel separation, etc.

There is obviously more image density which yields a much more whole and immersive surroundfield. A bit more resolution too I think.
 

Bulldogger

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Theta appears to have already made the move to the new power supply. I have a Pronto Pro remote file on Remote Central. A member there informed me that his CB3 need a new power supply. Theta replaced his old power supply with the new version at no charge. Now however my file which use rs232 commands only, no longer works. I am going to contact Theta and see why. I know the upgrade scheduled now for December will use a new operating system.
 

LesAuber

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The rs232 protocol manual on the website is dated 2005 so they haven't posted any updates yet. Be interested in hearing what you find out.
 

Steve Bruzonsky

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Theta appears to have already made the move to the new power supply. I have a Pronto Pro remote file on Remote Central. A member there informed me that his CB3 need a new power supply. Theta replaced his old power supply with the new version at no charge. Now however my file which use rs232 commands only, no longer works. I am going to contact Theta and see why. I know the upgrade scheduled now for December will use a new operating system.

New power supply makes sense since ATi has expertise and years of experience re power supplies.
This is one area where I was told ATI definitely intended to improve Theta's amps.

So now the upgrade is scheduled for December. Mebbe we're getting there?
 

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