PurePower+ 3000
- Thread starter classba
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classba: I would recommend that you first decide why you might want a regenerator? These two technologies are about as different as is possible for AC power conditioning devices. The Powercell "works" by a basically unknown, or unrevealed "method" which somehow is supposed to apparently make the AC "better". If you like how it sounds in your system, I wouls not be tempted to change, unless you know there is an AC "problem" which the Powercell does not address.
AC regenerators, when they are made right, do three things: 1. They hold the voltage constant, regardless of load. 2. They reduce AC line noise (waveform distortion) by creating a new AC waveform using a (usually) digital signal generator creating a close to "perfect" sinewave. 3. They reduce the impedance of the AC line.
So, decide if a regenerator is right for you:
1. Does your AC line voltage sag during music playback? Measure your line voltage while playing dynamic music at loud levels and see if the voltage sags significantly, if it does, a really good regenerator might help large scal dynamics.
2. Do you have noise issues? Well, you will need to listen test to decide on this one, Regenerator vs Powercell
3. Is AC line impedance affecting your system? This is usually only a problem with mid fi components, not with really well designed high end components with well designed power supplies. A well designed power supply in a component will provide low impedance power to the active circuits, regardless of line impedance.
Note: an AC regenerator is an active component, essentially a very large power amplifier and a signal generator, as an active component it will also generate its own self noise, and this noise may actually do more harm than good. This is kind of a: "there is no free lunch" kind of situation. As I recall, the PurePower units are class D designs, so be warned, they may generate a lot of RF. You might be better off considering PS Audio if you are looking to try a regenerator.
AC regenerators, when they are made right, do three things: 1. They hold the voltage constant, regardless of load. 2. They reduce AC line noise (waveform distortion) by creating a new AC waveform using a (usually) digital signal generator creating a close to "perfect" sinewave. 3. They reduce the impedance of the AC line.
So, decide if a regenerator is right for you:
1. Does your AC line voltage sag during music playback? Measure your line voltage while playing dynamic music at loud levels and see if the voltage sags significantly, if it does, a really good regenerator might help large scal dynamics.
2. Do you have noise issues? Well, you will need to listen test to decide on this one, Regenerator vs Powercell
3. Is AC line impedance affecting your system? This is usually only a problem with mid fi components, not with really well designed high end components with well designed power supplies. A well designed power supply in a component will provide low impedance power to the active circuits, regardless of line impedance.
Note: an AC regenerator is an active component, essentially a very large power amplifier and a signal generator, as an active component it will also generate its own self noise, and this noise may actually do more harm than good. This is kind of a: "there is no free lunch" kind of situation. As I recall, the PurePower units are class D designs, so be warned, they may generate a lot of RF. You might be better off considering PS Audio if you are looking to try a regenerator.
That is incorrect. PS Audio regenerators are class b amplifiers, with a patented tracking power supply in order to increase efficiency. There is no switching (class D) tech in PS Audio AC regenerators.
From your assertive tone, I'm assuming you're either afilliated or a customer of PS Audio, so I will humbly stand corrected. No Class D there, then.
alexandre
alexandre
Sorry man, did not mean to offend in any way. I used to work at PS Audio, since it was more than three years ago I did not feel it necessary to reveal, but perhaps it is better that I do. I have no affiliation with them now. The Power Plant Premier, and the current newer models, do not use any switching tech in either the power supplies or output stage. They do use a patented tracking approach, which allows for greater efficiency than a fully traditional arrangement would allow. They did try to develop a class D style regenerator, but were dissappointed with the noise performance. I have been involved in some testing of the Pure Power units, and was not impressed at the output distortion levels, or the audible noise which came out of the units when under loads above 300 watts. As always, YMMV, but my recommendation for a regenerator would be to use PS Audio's top of the line model. It is the only (current) one I would consider.
Personally, the older Power Plants (P-300, P-600, and P-1000 being the best) are very good as well, especially if you know a friendly tech who can refurb them for you. The best way to use them though, is at about half of their rated power or lower, this is where they perform best. Like any linear power amplifier, their performance decreases as output power increases.
No offense taken. I honestly remembered reading about them switching from AB to D by the release of the Power Plant Premier, when I was about to buy one. But obviously, my memory played a trick...
For the record, I have two broken Power Plants, one P-300 and one Premier. So, not impressed by their reliability
alexandre
For the record, I have two broken Power Plants, one P-300 and one Premier. So, not impressed by their reliability
alexandre
I am well aware of the reliability problems of some PS Audio models. I did work in CS there and tech support, as well as sales. The older models, P-300, P-600, and P-1000 are all very reliable when used correctly. That is when they are not asked to deliver huge wattage. Unfortunately, PS Audio specifications for their output capabilities were really rather unrealistic. The P-300 is a great unit for powering a couple of solid state source components, or a single tube source (maybe two tube sources if they are lower power draw models), and will run for many years at a load of under 130 watts or so. The P-600 is reliable on loads up to about 400 watts continuous, and the P-1000 is good to about 500 watts continuous. All of these units are probably available used for cheap, and will require a refurb (replacing all electrolytic capacitors will likely be necessary). These units provide great performance and reliability when used within these limitations.
I would not really recommend the Power Plant Premier personally.
Of the new units, I know that the big one is very, very good, and should be reliable as well, as long as it is not overloaded.
One other thing, the PowerPlants need to be treated like the big, powerful, amplifiers which they are. They need plenty of ventilation, so as to not be allowed to overheat, as too much heat kills the capacitors, and will eventually kill the unit itself. I have a P-300 I refurbed and modded, and the thing has been running 24/7 for years running a couple of solid state source components (load around 100 watts). It really is too bad PS Audio often overstated the output power capability of these regenerators, because used within the limits I express here, they really do perform remarkably well.
I would not really recommend the Power Plant Premier personally.
Of the new units, I know that the big one is very, very good, and should be reliable as well, as long as it is not overloaded.
One other thing, the PowerPlants need to be treated like the big, powerful, amplifiers which they are. They need plenty of ventilation, so as to not be allowed to overheat, as too much heat kills the capacitors, and will eventually kill the unit itself. I have a P-300 I refurbed and modded, and the thing has been running 24/7 for years running a couple of solid state source components (load around 100 watts). It really is too bad PS Audio often overstated the output power capability of these regenerators, because used within the limits I express here, they really do perform remarkably well.
I think Barrows' posts were pretty informative. I've always been a little gun-shy about any conditioner or regenerator, although my AC where I am now is pretty good, just using dedicated lines and basically sound wiring and grounding- and believe me, with horns at 104db efficiency, I can hear everything nasty, whether it's a noisy appliance somewhere else in the house, a funky tranformer down the street (that happened a couple weeks ago) or just inter-component grounding issues, something I've worked like the dickens to ameliorate. I'm ok plugging straight in, for now, but did buy the big Equi=Tech wall panel for my next installation and am hopeful that it will do what I need to isolate the system from the rest of the world. Welcome to the site, Barrows.
My old P-300 blew, as I kept it on 24/7, and one day it just went (loud) "boom", and never turned on again. The local tech didn't want to poke around it, as it seemed too complex...
And yes, thanks for your very informative posts, and welcome to WBF
alexandre
And yes, thanks for your very informative posts, and welcome to WBF
alexandre
Hi Barrows...thanks. Any thoughts on the bigger conditioners from Isoclean, Tripoint Spartan or Accuphase? Or Transparent?
I am not familiar with the Tripoint or Transparent. The Accuphase looks like a very high quality product, as one would expect form that company, but I have no personal experience with it. I think if someone is looking for an active regenerator style power conditioner, and the Accuphase units are within your power needs and budget, that they would be worth an audition.
I am also really interested in the non-traditional "conditioners" from Synergistic and Nordost, as they "work" (or not, lol) by completely different means than any filter or regenerator technology, but I do find it rather dissapointing that neither company really accurately describes what/how they work. All the decriptions are couched in such marketing terminology as to be entirely obtuse as to the real function of these units. I have no money to experiment with them at this time... maybe another day.
Any competant technician who is able to maintain and repair solid state amplifiers should be able to service a P-300. Typical failures are shorted output transistors caused by worn out power supply capacitors. Almost all failure modes with the older PS Audio regenerators are on the solid state output side of the units, and this is identical circuitry to a power amp. What components was your P-300 powering, and did your unit have the internal cooling fan?
I am also really interested in the non-traditional "conditioners" from Synergistic and Nordost, as they "work" (or not, lol) by completely different means than any filter or regenerator technology, but I do find it rather dissapointing that neither company really accurately describes what/how they work. All the decriptions are couched in such marketing terminology as to be entirely obtuse as to the real function of these units. I have no money to experiment with them at this time... maybe another day.
Any competant technician who is able to maintain and repair solid state amplifiers should be able to service a P-300. Typical failures are shorted output transistors caused by worn out power supply capacitors. Almost all failure modes with the older PS Audio regenerators are on the solid state output side of the units, and this is identical circuitry to a power amp. What components was your P-300 powering, and did your unit have the internal cooling fan?
Yes, it had a (very loud) cooling fan.
It was powering my video setup, a projector, receiver and blue ray player.
alexandre
It was powering my video setup, a projector, receiver and blue ray player.
alexandre
hahahaha, sorry. No wonder, a video projector is way too big a load for a P-300, and a P-300 should never be used to power any amplifier. Your load was probably 2 or 3 times beyond the capability of the P-300. The P-300 is rated to 300 watts output maximum, and realistically, with the fan, it is capable of about 200 watts comtinuous. I do not use the fan in mine, but only let it power devices totalling about 100 watts load, never more than that.
I own 2 Pure Power 2000 . Love Them. They replaced 2 PS Audio Power Plant Premiers ( large door stops) The PS Audio units were a big joke (junk) they performed well under par. You can always make use them on your fish tank pump.
My friend also owns a Pure Power 2000 , he has a 63" Plasma TV, Two power amps, and a subwoofer amp feeding off this unit. At 72% percent power output . No noise , and the picture on his TV looks almost 3 D now!
My friend also owns a Pure Power 2000 , he has a 63" Plasma TV, Two power amps, and a subwoofer amp feeding off this unit. At 72% percent power output . No noise , and the picture on his TV looks almost 3 D now!
Hahahaha! Have you measured the output of the PurePowers? I will guarantee you that there is higher distortion on the output of your friend's PurePower under that load, than the wall has. Too bad the PurePower units have no way for you to know what is actually happening on their output. The Power Plant Premier is discontinued, and I would personally not recommend it, 'nuff said on that unit. The unit I would recommend is the the current model, the P10, from PS Audio. And it measures its own output and can show the user exactly what he is getting, including the output distortion, and the shape of the AC waveform. If you have access to a decent 'scope, I would suggest that you have a look at the output waveform of one of the PurePower units under a real load. I have seen the output of a PurePower unit under a 300 watt (moderate) load, and it was not pretty.
Or, do a listening test of the PurePower vs. P10; forget the Power Plant Premier though.
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Thank you...very helpful. I do like my Nordost QX4...i would not pretend to understand the jargon of its description...but it works. Meanwhile, the Transparent Audio Power Conditioner protects against spikes as well, so happy to have it in the system. I would like to consider Accuphase someday...thanks again.
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