PurePower+ 3000

Sammy T

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2012
241
26
933
The wave form on the PS Audio PPP looked perfect, so what... they were junk.
 

barrows

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2012
102
4
258
Boulder, CO
The wave form on the PS Audio PPP looked perfect, so what... they were junk.

Actually, I would not categorize the PPP that way, but it is not relevant now. As I said, three times now, the only unit I would recommend from PS Audio is the P10, which is the current, top of the line model.
When we are talking about AC regenerators, I think it is important to point out that their performance can be very accurately described by their measurements. These units are not some kind of audio voodoo hocus pocus devices. They are quite simply, power amplifiers of some sort, with a signal generator to build the waveform. As such, measurements can very accurately describe their performance. The goal of any AC regenerator is the same, perfect performance, which would be: a perfect 60 Hz sine wave output (0 THD and noise), with perfectly stable voltage at the reference level (which is often adjustable), and zero output impedance; and all these parameters should stay the same regardless of load conditions up to the specced continuous output capability of the DUT.
In the tests I observed of the PurePower units, the output distortion and output impedance exceeded that of the wall, and there was considerable high frequency noise on the output. It is too bad John Atkinson and Stereophile do not do more reviews of these type of products, as he has the gear really evaluate the performance of regenerators objectively. I would love to see comparative measurements made of the various active type conditioners: PS Audio, Accuphase, and Pure Power, including distortion/noise measurements and spectrum analysis, as well as voltage stability under varying loads, and output impedance.
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
412
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Northern NY
The wave form on the PS Audio PPP looked perfect, so what... they were junk.


Junk ? My amps sound better with them than with them plugged directly into the wall. I do realize there have been some reliability issues with the ppp. If it fails, oh well. The battery backup of the Pure Power is a joke...like the battery is going to run my system...I think not....a totally useless feature for stereo's, so why pay for it ? I also have a p5. I may just trade in my ppp's for two more p5's for my amps.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,510
1,448
Actually, I would not categorize the PPP that way, but it is not relevant now. As I said, three times now, the only unit I would recommend from PS Audio is the P10, which is the current, top of the line model.
When we are talking about AC regenerators, I think it is important to point out that their performance can be very accurately described by their measurements. These units are not some kind of audio voodoo hocus pocus devices. They are quite simply, power amplifiers of some sort, with a signal generator to build the waveform. As such, measurements can very accurately describe their performance. The goal of any AC regenerator is the same, perfect performance, which would be: a perfect 60 Hz sine wave output (0 THD and noise), with perfectly stable voltage at the reference level (which is often adjustable), and zero output impedance; and all these parameters should stay the same regardless of load conditions up to the specced continuous output capability of the DUT.
In the tests I observed of the PurePower units, the output distortion and output impedance exceeded that of the wall, and there was considerable high frequency noise on the output. It is too bad John Atkinson and Stereophile do not do more reviews of these type of products, as he has the gear really evaluate the performance of regenerators objectively. I would love to see comparative measurements made of the various active type conditioners: PS Audio, Accuphase, and Pure Power, including distortion/noise measurements and spectrum analysis, as well as voltage stability under varying loads, and output impedance.

My local dealer (of Accuphase, Transparent Audio, Nordost and PS Audio) has said not to stick the Gryphon Colosseum amp into any power conditioner...but if there were one he [might] try...it would be the big Accupahse. Personally, i have no desire to blow equipment up...so i wont do it...but i have heard very good things about Isoclean, Accuphase and Tripoint and would love to try one in my system at home.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,510
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Did he give you a legitimate reason why ? How much power (watts) does the Gryphon consume ?

Well, for one thing I melted one of his Nordost power conditioner products using my old Gryphon Antileon once...It burns about 800 watts out of the wall at idle and generates about 100 amperes i am told. I am no techie. The Colosseum is a bit more powerful.
 

barrows

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2012
102
4
258
Boulder, CO
No true regenerator will be a good match with the most powerful class A/B or class A amplifiers in the world, consider:
A 20 amp circuit provides 20*115 at most 2300 watts, but in most homes, the voltage will drop significantly if one really draws 20 amps, perhaps, more realistically one can expect to get 2000 watts from the wall with a 20 A circuit. So, say you have an amplifier which requires 1800 watts maximum (lets hope that it is equipped with a 20 amp IEC and the manufacturer advises it is powered from its own 20 A circuit). So, even a class D regenerator will only achieve around 85% efficiency at full output. So, even the most optimistic estimate would result in 2000 watts*.85, 1700 watts really being available from the regenerator. Now, consider that regenerators are themselves power amplifiers, as we all know, power amplifiers do not perfrom their best at full rated output, distortion rises with power output. So any regenerator is going to be performing poorly at full output. For best performance, I would not put a load greater than 75% of the realistic continuous power capability of the regenerator, so, 1700*.75=1200 watts. So we have a figure of the real upper limit of a class D regenerator, running on a dedicated 20 A line, at 1200 watts output.
We can see that a less efficient regenerator design, like Accuphase or PS Audio, will have a bit lower upper limit, and rememeber we are still making these calcs based on a 20 A system... Adjust as necessary for your system and amp(s).
I do not know the max power consumtion of the Gryphon, but I am sure it is specified by the manufacturer. The biggest traditional power amps available generally need to be powered directly from a dedicated 20 A circuit, and your dealer is likely giving you good advice. But, you should also consider speaker load, room size, and listening levels. Just because one has an amplifier capable of producing very high power outputs does not mean that one will necessarily use full power, and peak power is a totally different thing.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,510
1,448
No true regenerator will be a good match with the most powerful class A/B or class A amplifiers in the world, consider:
A 20 amp circuit provides 20*115 at most 2300 watts, but in most homes, the voltage will drop significantly if one really draws 20 amps, perhaps, more realistically one can expect to get 2000 watts from the wall with a 20 A circuit. So, say you have an amplifier which requires 1800 watts maximum (lets hope that it is equipped with a 20 amp IEC and the manufacturer advises it is powered from its own 20 A circuit). So, even a class D regenerator will only achieve around 85% efficiency at full output. So, even the most optimistic estimate would result in 2000 watts*.85, 1700 watts really being available from the regenerator. Now, consider that regenerators are themselves power amplifiers, as we all know, power amplifiers do not perfrom their best at full rated output, distortion rises with power output. So any regenerator is going to be performing poorly at full output. For best performance, I would not put a load greater than 75% of the realistic continuous power capability of the regenerator, so, 1700*.75=1200 watts. So we have a figure of the real upper limit of a class D regenerator, running on a dedicated 20 A line, at 1200 watts output.
We can see that a less efficient regenerator design, like Accuphase or PS Audio, will have a bit lower upper limit, and rememeber we are still making these calcs based on a 20 A system... Adjust as necessary for your system and amp(s).
I do not know the max power consumtion of the Gryphon, but I am sure it is specified by the manufacturer. The biggest traditional power amps available generally need to be powered directly from a dedicated 20 A circuit, and your dealer is likely giving you good advice. But, you should also consider speaker load, room size, and listening levels. Just because one has an amplifier capable of producing very high power outputs does not mean that one will necessarily use full power, and peak power is a totally different thing.

Wow...thanks for that! I will probably have to re-read this again to digest it fully. Appreciate your taking the time!
 

Mmizner

New Member
May 8, 2011
4
0
0
Barrows,


Thanks for sharing your opinion on the PS audio regenerators. I've owned quite a few (P300, P600, P1200 and PPP) and I've been happy with the results.
You mentioned that the only current model you would recommend is their "top of the line" P10, but can you offer some insight on the P5?
I own a PS Audio P5 and a Purepower P2000. I prefer the P5 but it might be underpowered for the application I'm using it for.
I would buy the P10 if I knew it would be an improvement over the P5.
Your advice would be appreciated.

Michael Mizner
 

barrows

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2012
102
4
258
Boulder, CO
Barrows,


Thanks for sharing your opinion on the PS audio regenerators. I've owned quite a few (P300, P600, P1200 and PPP) and I've been happy with the results.
You mentioned that the only current model you would recommend is their "top of the line" P10, but can you offer some insight on the P5?
I own a PS Audio P5 and a Purepower P2000. I prefer the P5 but it might be underpowered for the application I'm using it for.
I would buy the P10 if I knew it would be an improvement over the P5.
Your advice would be appreciated.

Michael Mizner

My preference for the P10 is due to its size and output capability. These units need to be big in order to really deliver much output power… and to be able to dissipate enough heat to be reliable in the long term. Additionally, no regenerator is going to be delivering its best when it is asked to deliver anywhere near its maximum output power. Like any power amplifier, it is best to use these regenerators with plenty of headroom, so that they produce lower distortion on their output.
 

audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
2,794
73
1,635
Near Atlanta, GA but not too near!
Junk ? My amps sound better with them than with them plugged directly into the wall. I do realize there have been some reliability issues with the ppp. If it fails, oh well. The battery backup of the Pure Power is a joke...like the battery is going to run my system...I think not....a totally useless feature for stereo's, so why pay for it ? I also have a p5. I may just trade in my ppp's for two more p5's for my amps.

WRONG. I have a PP1050 running my front end gear and PP2000 running my three front speakers. I unplugged both units from the wall and after 20 minutes, all equipment was still running. I would not run my system that way but with lightening and thunder storms in the southeast, it is nice to know that I will not have to worry about having the power to my equipment shut off due to a momentary power outage in my home which is not all that uncommon.

Secondly and more importantly, the PP will allow me to pull more power from it that the wall provides as it will use what is in the battery PLUS what is in the wall. How do I know this? Very easily measured.

It is certainly OK for you not to like the Pure Power but I suggest you check your facts before spouting off so quickly !!!
 

Sammy T

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2012
241
26
933
Yep, Audioguy is well informed . PurePower re-generators are NOT current limited in any way.
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
412
1,210
Northern NY
sorry, there ain't no way the PP unit will run my Pass XS-150's on battery power. Who cares if it runs your low wattage source when your power amps are dead. Stupid audio feature...,great for computers though.
 

Sammy T

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2012
241
26
933
I guess it's OK for some people to spend the Big dollars on a 180 mile an hour sports car that came with Y rated tires, But... are only running an H rated tire. Moral of the story , don't cheap out where it Really Counts!
 

audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
2,794
73
1,635
Near Atlanta, GA but not too near!
sorry, there ain't no way the PP unit will run my Pass XS-150's on battery power. Who cares if it runs your low wattage source when your power amps are dead. Stupid audio feature...,great for computers though.

Why don't you go back and re-read my post. I have a PP2000 that runs my three front powered speakers which are tri-amped with a total of 2000 watts each. Do I ever use that kind of power? No. Would I ever run them on battery that way? No. The purpose of the batteries is NOT to run your equipment for extended periods of time but to provide (as I previously stated but apparently not clear enough for those with reading comprehension issues) (a) support for brief power outages and (b) provide more than adequate power for the connected equipment.

Have a nice day!
 

barrows

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2012
102
4
258
Boulder, CO
Ridiculous, everything is current limited... One must make sure not to put too big of a load on any regenerator, otherwise they will perform poorly. Now, because of the class D efficiency advantage, the most powerful PurePower will be able to deliver a little more power than the most powerful PS Audio unit (the P10), but, of course, that additional power comes with all the extra noise and higher output impedance inherent in using a switching amplifier stage.
 

chrisr

Member Sponsor
Aug 29, 2011
70
3
313
Chicago area
Now, because of the class D efficiency advantage, the most powerful PurePower will be able to deliver a little more power than the most powerful PS Audio unit (the P10), but, of course, that additional power comes with all the extra noise and higher output impedance inherent in using a switching amplifier stage.

From what I've read, the P10 lets noise through from the wall, i.e. not great isolation from the wall. Apparently the PurePower unit isolates from the wall. What is the lesser of 2 evils, switching amplifier stage with better isolation or a non-switching amp stage that lets grunge through?

I'm in the market for a new power product. I agree that the battery power is not a driver for me. But the regeneration plus isolation seems like a good combo.
 

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