Please pardon my ignorance. I have no technical background. When you use the word "conversion" is that DSD>PCM or something unrelated?
MSB Diamond DAC IV Reviewed By Stereophile
- Thread starter catastrofe
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And would it be feasible to have that filter happen in software, when the required hardware is already in place?
In my layman's eyes, if you have a programmable DAC that's fast enough, and complete control of the software that keeps that DAC ticking, there's no reason why it can't be done.
I don't know hardware, but I do know software
And if the hardware is fast/powerful enough, software becomes the limitation of what you can do. And, according to MSB, the DACIV is fast enough to handle 32/768 24 bit PCM, natively, in multibit. Don't see why it wouldn't be able to handle single bit 5.6Mhz (hardware-wise). Unfortunately, AMR never had a rep. here in my country, so it's not so easy for me to listen to one. But Zanden just got a new importer, and I might be getting one for a trial run.
alexandre
And would it be feasible to have that filter happen in software, when the required hardware is already in place?
In my layman's eyes, if you have a programmable DAC that's fast enough, and complete control of the software that keeps that DAC ticking, there's no reason why it can't be done.
I don't know hardware, but I do know software
Unfortunately, AMR never had a rep. here in my country, so it's not so easy for me to listen to one. But Zanden just got a new importer, and I might be getting one for a trial run.
alexandre
Hi Alexandre,
If you do decide to try the 4-box Zanden, some suggestions that make a serious difference between stock and 'better (imho)':
DAC
- Amperex 7308 NOS tube
- EAT Tube Damper
- HRS nimbus/damper products under/over each box
- PAD Dominus power cord
DAC PSU
- Mullard 6CA4 and Sylvania 6X4 NOS tubes
- HRS nimbus/damper products under/over each box
Transport
- HRS M3 isolation platform/nimbus couplers
- PAD Dominus Power cord
Basically, its a great player but does improve with tweaks. Enjoy.
The 6CA4 was one of the tubes that were sold by a variety of companies using a number of different labels. Because a 6CA4 has the Mullard logo doesn't mean it was made by Mullard. Ditto for Tungsol and the rest of the usual contenders. Mike Elliott from Counterpoint fame wrote an essay about this. You can read it about here: http://www.altavistaaudio.com/tubes.html#6ca4
lloyd,
Thanks, but I don't think the importer would be crazy enough to lend me the 4-box set But there's always hope...
Anyway, got word from Larry at MSB. DSD is native, not converted to PCM.
alexandre
Thanks, but I don't think the importer would be crazy enough to lend me the 4-box set
But there's always hope...Anyway, got word from Larry at MSB. DSD is native, not converted to PCM.
alexandre
I don't understand the second half of your question but yes its entirely possible to build the filter in software, just pretty inefficient. Inefficient because software architectures these days are 32 or even 64 bits wide typically, whereas DSD is just 1 bit wide. Perhaps to gain efficiency though in software we could use a look-up table after packing all the single bit data into a 32bit word. Then we could probably operate efficiently but I haven't looked into this in detail. Anyway I see the point is moot now - you're saying its come from the horse's mouth that there's separate hardware to do DSD.
I don't know hardware, but I do know software
Simply because 24bits at 768kHz isn't equivalent to 1bit at 5.6MHz. Its a major overclock of the DAC - it'd be like saying I can run my Intel CPU 8 times faster if I only use the simple instructions. Doesn't work that way - bits and MHz aren't freely interchangeable.
You can use the ST-optical with Sonoma, EMM Labs, Mytek, Grimm and Playback Designs. They're all interchangeable
The dCS gear I had used FW to transmit DSD data.
No, that's not what he said. There is no separate hardware. It was the same ol' hardware, that gained native DSD capability via a software/firmware update.
The fact is that the DACIV is fast enough for both 32/768 and 1bit/5.6MHz, both natively, with the same hardware/DAC modules.
As for your "inefficient" point, I disagree. You can write 64-bit code to process 1-bit data, and be very efficient at it.
Honestly, I'd love for you to have a look at the MSB. It'd be great if more people could get a grip on it, and start writing custom filters for it.
alexandre
Round and round we go trying to make some semblance of order from the 'spin'.
The same old hardware (which you have said tops out at 32X) cannot play any kind of stuff which requires 64X sample rate. End of.No, that's a claim. Don't confuse claims with facts, they're by no means equivalent.
I take it you're using a different meaning of 'efficient' to the one I was. I wasn't talking about the software engineer's writing efficiency ('You can... be very efficient') rather the hardware's efficiency.
You and me both - can't see it happening when there's so much smoke being blown though, can you?
So you're saying that it's impossible for the DACIV to play / accept both 32/768 PCM as well as 5.6Mhz DSD, using the same hardware? And that there's some "smoke" being blown around this issue?
Well, I don't see it that way...
It might be a claim, but that's a verifiable claim, unlike some of the smoke that's been blown around about NOS DACs. As I said, you can write code to run on that piece of hardware. If it doesn't run as fast as it claims, there ya go, claim debunked.
Of course, it's easier to claim something's amiss instead of really trying to understand what's going on...
alexandre
Well, I don't see it that way...
It might be a claim, but that's a verifiable claim, unlike some of the smoke that's been blown around about NOS DACs. As I said, you can write code to run on that piece of hardware. If it doesn't run as fast as it claims, there ya go, claim debunked.
Of course, it's easier to claim something's amiss instead of really trying to understand what's going on...
alexandre
Nope. I don't confuse my understanding (which is limited) with what's possible. I'm saying I know of no way to make a DAC whose top speed limit is 32X play at 128X.
Obviously, yes - and I'm not the only one to notice the smoke. As has been pointed out already, when this question is raised, the response is - tumbleweeds. Now if there wasn't any smoke, there would be clarifications forthcoming I rather think.
Indeed its verifiable, but no verification has been offered to date, and clearly that's not for want of asking.
I note with interest this deflection off-topic
guys you have lost me with all this stuff. However, as a proud owner of a new Diamond, I can say it is the best I have ever heard. I haven't heard them all so I make no claim to it being better than others or even a "smart" purchase. BUT in the end, the most important aspect is enjoyment and having gone through a long list of DACs, none has moved me the way the Diamond with the Galaxay does. First listen, I was hooked. I have had it for two weeks now and love it.
Priaptor,
It's my point exactly. Those that care to listen, are rewarded with excellent SQ both in PCM and DSD. Which sort of renders this argument about "smoke" pointless... Besides, where there's smoke, there's fire
I don't really think it's reasonable to expect the manufacturer to explain how he accomplished things. Since I'm not a hardware guy, I'm happy with the information I got from MSB so far, though I understand if the tweakheads are annoyed that they can't figure out how MSB did it...
alexandre
It's my point exactly. Those that care to listen, are rewarded with excellent SQ both in PCM and DSD. Which sort of renders this argument about "smoke" pointless... Besides, where there's smoke, there's fire
I don't really think it's reasonable to expect the manufacturer to explain how he accomplished things. Since I'm not a hardware guy, I'm happy with the information I got from MSB so far, though I understand if the tweakheads are annoyed that they can't figure out how MSB did it...
alexandre
How does the fact that the MSB supports up to 32/768 PCM mean this is the limitation of the speed of the underlying hardware? Wouldn't it be entirely conceivable it runs 32/768 at 1/4 of maximum speed (or even less)? If so, it could run 128x using the same hardware.
Priaptor,
It's my point exactly. Those that care to listen, are rewarded with excellent SQ both in PCM and DSD. Which sort of renders this argument about "smoke" pointless... Besides, where there's smoke, there's fire
I don't really think it's reasonable to expect the manufacturer to explain how he accomplished things. Since I'm not a hardware guy, I'm happy with the information I got from MSB so far, though I understand if the tweakheads are annoyed that they can't figure out how MSB did it...
alexandre
Agree. I am having a blast.
It doesn't mean that - just would make more sense marketing wise if they were to use (and advertise) the full capabilities of the hardware in PCM mode. Why hamstring your own design and forfeit kudos?
Its conceivable certainly but I can't think of a marketing reason why they'd not support it for PCM. Can you?
Yes I can. They are communicating what existing music formats are supported by the hardware, not what non-existing formats their hardware could theoretically support. Since these existing formats max out at 32/768, this is all we need to know. I for one would consider it bad marketing to communicate that the player can support anything beyond that, because it is a message geared towards engineers interested in specs, not people primarily interested in playing music. Not saying this is what is going on, but it is perfectly plausible to me.
To me what formats are supported at the input and what the output is doing are distinct and somewhat orthogonal. I wasn't aware of an existing recording format at 32/768 but please do feel free to enlighten me. In the discussions so far I haven't been remarking on what input formats are supported, merely on the output rate of the D/A.
Yes, I agree here - its a distraction to claim to support input formats which can't in practice be supplied to the DAC. But that's entirely tangential to what I've been saying about output rates.
What is interesting is how the internal processes of DSD over PCM (DoP) works from a transmission perspective and also receiver-DAC-clocking inside the audio gear (S/PDIF has many different receiver chips dedicated and able to do part of this).
http://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard
Is this the only way for consumers to play DSD without the PC media-play software converting to PCM (such as is possible with JRiver that can convert to 64-bit)?
I appreciate JRiver also supports DoP.
Cheers
Orb
http://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard
Is this the only way for consumers to play DSD without the PC media-play software converting to PCM (such as is possible with JRiver that can convert to 64-bit)?
I appreciate JRiver also supports DoP.
Cheers
Orb
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