MSB Diamond DAC IV Reviewed By Stereophile

edorr · Sep 19, 2012

catastrofe said:
My Sonore server uses the SOtM USB outputs, which are fantastic. This server is much better than any of the Mac based solutions I tried (Mac Pro, Mac Mini, and Macbook Pro). It doesn't surprise me that Alexandre noticed a difference between the output of his Mini and Macbook. . .all USB is not created equal.

My MSB would sit behind a Trinnov ST2-Pro processor connected via AES/EBU. The source into the Trinnov is Offramp 5, which is fed by the SotM USB card in a dedicated PC based server (Caps 2.0).

In an ideal world, I would take the Trinnov out and use USB straight into the DAC, which would save me 10K worth of hardware. However, I keep finding the Trinnov if very effective in my system.

catastrofe said:
The key to the Analog DAC is that once you buy it, there's no opportunity for future upgrades. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. . .the DAC IV series just targets a different customer base.

If 10-11K is the absolute most you ever want to spend on a DAC that is a good thing; Matthew 6:13 "lead me not into temptation"

LL21 · Sep 19, 2012

rockitman said:
looks like that will be my rig when i upgrade next year. Enjoyed reading a review finally.

I am told Andy Payor has one in his Arrakis room at Rockport HQ...that says something to me. While manufacturers often listen to multiple set ups with their equipment, with a reputation like Rockport, i suspect they are really only interested in listening to the really great stuff.

opus111 · Sep 19, 2012

edorr said:
It still baffles me how these asynchronous DAC's with very accurate clocks and input buffering can be so sensitive to the quality (jitter I presume) of the input signal. Not only on USB, but many DACs (including MSB) are now fully asynchronous on all other inputs as well. As of yet, none of the digital luminarier on any of the forums has been able to give me a good explaination for this.

My hypothesis on this is its not jitter, since there's no known way for jitter on the input to affect the async clock. Rather its common-mode noise carried over the USB cable which is getting into the analog circuits. Although many DACs use isolation (the QB-9 has optoisolators), there's still capacitance across that isolation barrier which allows RF noise to cross.

One way to test my hypothesis would be to snap a handful of ferrite clamps over the USB cable and see if they make a difference to the sound. Ferrites increase the common mode impedance, but each one doesn't add very much on its own. That's why I suggest using a lot - they're cheap so why not? Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio is selling a USB common-mode choke (called the Short Block) which has a similar effect, though at a much higher price than ferrites.

jap · Sep 19, 2012

edorr said:
so I still need empirical validation of the analog DAC destroys PWD MKII hypothesis.....

Haven't heard the MSB Analog DAC, but having spent sometime listening to the Signature Platinum DAC IV,
I never felt it "destroyed" my PWD MKII using the I2S inputs, especially at 3.5X the price.

In search of a more analog sounding DAC that didn't cost more than my truck, I listened to a Aesthetix Pandora and was very impressed. Since I don't have any DSD recordings and don't use a preamp, I ordered one with the VC.

edorr · Sep 19, 2012

jap said:
Haven't heard the MSB Analog DAC, but having spent sometime listening to the Signature Platinum DAC IV,
I never felt it "destroyed" my PWD MKII using the I2S inputs, especially at 3.5X the price.

In search of a more analog sounding DAC that didn't cost more than my truck, I listened to a Aesthetix Pandora and was very impressed. Since I don't have any DSD recordings and don't use a preamp, I ordered one with the VC.

Thanks jap. That is good input. Did you like the pandora better than the signature or did you go with pandora for economic reasons? I am keeping an open mind.

jap · Sep 20, 2012

edorr said:
Thanks jap. That is good input. Did you like the pandora better than the signature or did you go with pandora for economic reasons? I am keeping an open mind.

I think the Pandora makes the Signature sound like very good HiFi, while it sounds like very good analog.

IMO, it's appearance and build quality are also better then the MSB products.

edorr · Sep 20, 2012

jap said:
I think the Pandora makes the Signature sound like very good HiFi, while it sounds like very good analog.

IMO, it's appearance and build quality are also better then the MSB products.

Did you compare the two dacs in two otherwise identical systems?

asiufy · Sep 20, 2012

jap said:
Haven't heard the MSB Analog DAC, but having spent sometime listening to the Signature Platinum DAC IV,
I never felt it "destroyed" my PWD MKII using the I2S inputs, especially at 3.5X the price.

In search of a more analog sounding DAC that didn't cost more than my truck, I listened to a Aesthetix Pandora and was very impressed. Since I don't have any DSD recordings and don't use a preamp, I ordered one with the VC.

Jap,

What was the rest of the system?
I find it very strange, because just recently, a dealer here, that sells both MSB and Aesthetix, had an event, when he was introducing the Aesthetix brand in the country. He set up the brand's CD player (don't remember the name), but ended up using the MSB Signature DAC/Transport instead, as he felt it showcased the rest of the gear (all Aesthetix) better than the brand's own CD player... And I thought so too...
Guess I'll have to go back in there and check out this CD player, or ask to hear it in my setup...

alexandre

edorr · Sep 20, 2012

asiufy said:
Jap,

What was the rest of the system?
I find it very strange, because just recently, a dealer here, that sells both MSB and Aesthetix, had an event, when he was introducing the Aesthetix brand in the country. He set up the brand's CD player (don't remember the name), but ended up using the MSB Signature DAC/Transport instead, as he felt it showcased the rest of the gear (all Aesthetix) better than the brand's own CD player... And I thought so too...
Guess I'll have to go back in there and check out this CD player, or ask to hear it in my setup...

alexandre

This would have most likely been the Romulus, which is basically the same DAC as the pandora with a CD transport build in. The question is not just absolute performance, but price performance. The MBS gear would have been about 2 -3x the price of the Aesthetix player - if MSB was just marginally better Aesthetix becomes a very compelling alternative.

However, this is all very subjective and system dependent. A guy in computer audiophile listened to the pandora and find it sounding "a but digital". Jap is singing its praises as analog sounding.... No substitute for trying out yourself in your own system.

asiufy · Sep 20, 2012

edorr said:
This would have most likely been the Romulus, which is basically the same DAC as the pandora with a CD transport build in. The question is not just absolute performance, but price performance. The MBS gear would have been about 2 -3x the price of the Aesthetix player - if MSB was just marginally better Aesthetix becomes a very compelling alternative.

However, this is all very subjective and system dependent. A guy in computer audiophile listened to the pandora and find it sounding "a but digital". Jap is singing its praises as analog sounding.... No substitute for trying out yourself in your own system.

Yup, I found his comment strange, since MSB is the most "analog" of the digital front ends I've heard. But as you said, to each his own, and that's why I asked what was in the rest of the system...

alexandre

edorr · Sep 20, 2012

asiufy said:
Yup, I found his comment strange, since MSB is the most "analog" of the digital front ends I've heard. But as you said, to each his own, and that's why I asked what was in the rest of the system...

alexandre

I often wonder if all these guys talking about "analog sounding" actually have a reference of a real good TT (or tape) based system they once heard or own, or if they just use the term as a proxy for "natural, organic, without harshness".

LL21 · Sep 20, 2012

opus111 said:
My hypothesis on this is its not jitter, since there's no known way for jitter on the input to affect the async clock. Rather its common-mode noise carried over the USB cable which is getting into the analog circuits. Although many DACs use isolation (the QB-9 has optoisolators), there's still capacitance across that isolation barrier which allows RF noise to cross.

One way to test my hypothesis would be to snap a handful of ferrite clamps over the USB cable and see if they make a difference to the sound. Ferrites increase the common mode impedance, but each one doesn't add very much on its own. That's why I suggest using a lot - they're cheap so why not? Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio is selling a USB common-mode choke (called the Short Block) which has a similar effect, though at a much higher price than ferrites.

i'm no techie, but i enjoy trying to read/re-read your posts and learn bit by bit (pardon the pun!)

Thanks, Opus.

jap · Sep 22, 2012

asiufy said:
Jap,

What was the rest of the system?
I find it very strange, because just recently, a dealer here, that sells both MSB and Aesthetix, had an event, when he was introducing the Aesthetix brand in the country. He set up the brand's CD player (don't remember the name), but ended up using the MSB Signature DAC/Transport instead, as he felt it showcased the rest of the gear (all Aesthetix) better than the brand's own CD player... And I thought so too...
Guess I'll have to go back in there and check out this CD player, or ask to hear it in my setup...

alexandre

I heard the MSB Signature Platinum DAC IV along with the Universal Media Transport last year in a system with
Wilson Sashas, Pass XA 200.5 monoblocks, Stage III Magnus Prime cables and an Audience adeptResponse aR12-TS.

If your dealer’s Romulus had less than 100 hours on it, I suggest you go back for another listen. The Aesthetix
Pandora/Romulus owner’s manual says the burn in time is 400 hours.

rtilden · Sep 22, 2012

I can shed a little light on the Romulus since connecting mine about 7 weeks ago. First, a lengthy break-in is mandatory. Not just turning it on, but spinning discs. The first 50 hours of play had me scared to death, in that its sonics were kinda sorry. But just after that mark, it ALL came together. I'm probably at 85 hours now, and it continues to improve. Speaking to one comment, this thing sounds in NO WAY digital. Not the least little bit. I heard the MSB Platinum DAC at Newport and was quite impressed. I did not A/B the two units, but after figuring out the price tag of all the MSB pieces combined, digital just ain't worth that much to me. Now, having said that, the Romulus sounds, well, ... delicious. Hard to avoid playing it. I do have 2 or maybe 3 minor comments, which I will hold until full break-in and also after trying some NOS tubes. I don't swap components very often, and I was looking for a CdP to keep me happy for 5-10 years. I think that the Romulus may do it for me. If anyone has any specific questions, I can try to help.

ths61 · Oct 27, 2012

rtilden said:
I do have 2 or maybe 3 minor comments, which I will hold until full break-in and also after trying some NOS tubes. I don't swap components very often, and I was looking for a CdP to keep me happy for 5-10 years. I think that the Romulus may do it for me. If anyone has any specific questions, I can try to help.

Do you have any more feedback on the Aesthetix Romulus? Maybe you can start a new thread for the Romulus/Pandora?

edorr · Mar 1, 2013

Based on experiences reported by forum member Priaptor, I am leaning towards trying a Ref5SE preamp with my MSB Signature (soon to have femto clock). I generally have poor experience with preamps when a good VC is present in the DAC, but never went up the preamp foodchain quite this far.

Any comments whether this is a good idea or not? It is financially relatively risk free expiriment, because I can get the preamp used at a price I can easily resell it for, but it is still a big hassle. Am I wasting my time or is this worhtwhile?

arnies · Mar 1, 2013

edorr said:
Based on experiences reported by forum member Priaptor, I am leaning towards trying a Ref5SE preamp with my MSB Signature (soon to have femto clock). I generally have poor experience with preamps when a good VC is present in the DAC, but never went up the preamp foodchain quite this far.

Any comments whether this is a good idea or not? It is financially relatively risk free expiriment, because I can get the preamp used at a price I can easily resell it for, but it is still a big hassle. Am I wasting my time or is this worhtwhile?

Edorr,

I have the compared the MSB Diamond stepped attenuator to 2 different preamps. I think that the diamond volume control in the MSB Dac is pretty good, but when you compare it to the higher end preamps that at least in my system, I easily prefer my system with a preamp. With the preamp, the sound is more full bodied, better bass impact and slam, a more dimensional soundstage, etc. I don't use the ARC Ref5Se preamp, but I would guess that Priaptor heard similiar improvements as I did.

Arnie

LL21 · Mar 1, 2013

arnies said:
Edorr,

I have the compared the MSB Diamond stepped attenuator to 2 different preamps. I think that the diamond volume control in the MSB Dac is pretty good, but when you compare it to the higher end preamps that at least in my system, I easily prefer my system with a preamp. With the preamp, the sound is more full bodied, better bass impact and slam, a more dimensional soundstage, etc. I don't use the ARC Ref5Se preamp, but I would guess that Priaptor heard similiar improvements as I did.

Arnie

I have spoken with 1 or 2 other MSB owners, who have said the same as Arnie. FWIW.

edorr · Mar 1, 2013

Thanks guys, this is all I needed to hear to pull the trigger - I'm ordering this afternoon, and should have it up and running next week-end. The madness never ends.

Interestingly Vince @ MSB appears highly sceptical about improvements using a preamp, but thenagain, MSB does not sell preamps....

LL21 · Mar 1, 2013

edorr said:
Thanks guys, this is all I needed to hear to pull the trigger - I'm ordering this afternoon, and should have it up and running next week-end. The madness never ends.

Interestingly Vince @ MSB appears highly sceptical about improvements using a preamp, but thenagain, MSB does not sell preamps....

Look forward to your impressions! And congrats!

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